Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 12th, 2007

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

After listening to your presentation and hearing the witnesses, I am concerned, as Mr. Chair mentioned a few moments ago, about the reputation of Canada. We say when Canada leads, others follow. But I think the pace from 1992 to 2007 seems to be rather glacial.

I'd like to receive your comments, sir, as to why it has taken this long. Is there a will to do that? Has there been lack of political leadership over the last 15 years? I asked this question of our bureaucrat, but I didn't get a clear answer. Was there a direction? Do you have any idea if any direction is given, and if not, why not? And why is Canada not acting?

[Alex Neve]

Again, I wish I could give you a clear and precise answer to that. Let me start with the question of Canada's reputation.

I think that is something this committee should be concerned about. I wouldn't want to suggest at all that because we haven't ratified the optional protocol to the torture convention, we're suddenly now viewed within UN circles as a bad guy when it comes to human rights. I don't think that's the case at all. We've got way too strong a track record, and we are continuing to do very positive things at the international level.

I do think, though, there's a sense of disappointment at the international level because of the role Canada has played, because of the fact, as I said, that we generally really seek to lead on initiatives of this sort and not be a nation that comes following much later down the road. Everyone knows we need all the more leadership on the international level. We can't risk having any leadership diminish.

With respect to why it's taking so long, again, I can't give you a concrete answer to that because I don't have access to the progress of all of those discussions. But I think your question about political leadership, direction, and guidance is an important one.

I don't think we've seen that. I know through my own engagement I've had with various ministers, federally and provincially, over the years, I often have had a sympathetic audience and lots of nodding and assurances that the matter will be raised with counterparts. I would have to say to you I've never seen anything particularly concrete come of that. I think anything that can be done to remind our political leaders in this country, federally and provincially, of the role they have to play in advancing this would be very valuable.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Would you say, sir, that the subcommittee should have a bigger role in this, that we should actually be visiting or focusing on the torturing nations? I think Canada has been absent at that table as well.

[Alex Neve]

I'm sorry, I didn't catch that.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

In your view, should the subcommittee that you are the witness at today have an expanded role? Should we be focusing on the torturing countries? I'm not aware that we are actually very actively participating on the international stage.

[Alex Neve]

Certainly, obviously, the prevention of torture is an issue very close to the soul of Amnesty International, and any work this subcommittee is willing to do to more widely tackle that.... The work you're doing on the optional protocol is vitally important, but this is only one tool amongst a multitude of others that need to continue to be strengthened nationally. We have some issues within our own laws and practices in Canada, and internationally, because there's a multitude of other ways in which the UN and other international systems need to be strengthened.

So at some point, if this subcommittee was interested in taking on a wider study of Canada's role in efforts to combat torture worldwide, or whatever the study might look at, I think that could be a great contribution.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mario Silva]

Thank you.

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you for coming in today. Mr. Neve and I have met a time or two to discuss things.

Torture is an amazing thing. We in Canada are very lucky. We don't actually have to think about it very often in the context of our country. A number of years ago I spent some time in Saudi Arabia. I was struck when I met people who could hardly walk because of damaged feet, or who were missing eyes. I was in the market one day and a throng of people pushed me to the front as they were amputating a man's hand and beheading the next guy in line. It struck home hard.

I had the good fortune to have some time with Maher Arar and Mr. Amalki. Mr. Amalki, in particular, came to Hamilton, talking about what he lived through, especially in Syria, and the coffin-like confinement they go through for months, if not years. As well, I have a concern because right now we have Bashir Makhtal, who's being held in Ethiopia; we have Huseyin Celil, who's being held in China. Both cases are very likely cases in which torture is being applied.

But I think we tend to sit back, as a country, in this. I won't say we're complacent about torture, but because we don't think it'll happen here, there's less of an emphasis within the public mind on it.

I'd strongly urge anybody to watch a movie called Road to Guantanamo. If you think North Americans can't apply torture, when you see that movie, you'll find out things are grossly different.

So I think what we're hearing today is boiling down to one thing: we've not had, and continue to not have, the political will to make this happen in Canada. Would you agree with that?

[Alex Neve]

I think that's true. As I said earlier, I often find a sympathetic audience in speaking with ministers and senior officials around this. There is no disagreement at all that this is something worthwhile, but I have not yet seen that translate at those levels into a clear commitment that translates into the kind of direction and leadership that is needed within all governments to make it happen and make it happen quickly.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I think everybody here would agree that Canada has been a leader in human rights in the eyes of the world for many years. People may or may not want to agree, but that leadership role is going to be challenged by this delay.

Again, when I was in Saudi Arabia we were respected for the positions Canada took on a variety of interventions around the world. I've spoken to friends back there, and that's starting to change. It's starting to change for a number of reasons; I'm not trying to suggest it's as a result of this. But Canada is now being seen more in line with American policy, and I think it's essential that we move this forward as quickly as we can.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mario Silva]

Thank you.

I have just one last question. There has always been a great concern about the enforcement mechanisms of the treaties that are signed. We are obviously very supportive of our past participation and hope that the government will also support this optional protocol. Would you not say that this optional protocol adds another tool in the enforcement of human rights and that's why it's so valuable and so necessary to have this treaty be part of the Canadian body of law as well?

[Alex Neve]

Absolutely. I think one of the things that is so exciting about this is that it is concrete. Of course, treaties--which are about promises, pledges, and aspirations, as so many human rights treaties are--are vitally important. They do set the legal standards that through other mechanisms and processes we then all work to hold governments to.

This is an international instrument that is establishing a very concrete national- and international-level process that's actually meant to make a difference. We need that so desperately within the international human rights system. I think that's one of the most paramount reasons that this is an instrument so deserving of, ultimately, absolutely universal international support. Clearly, it will take us quite some while before we get every nation on board, but surely we're at a stage where we need to have nations like Canada firmly committed to this.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mario Silva]

Thank you.

There are no further questions.

I want to thank Mr. Neve and the other departmental officials for coming before the committee. It's been a very important and very good discussion that we've had here. I thank you very much for your presentations.

The meeting is adjourned.