Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 27th, 2008

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

But in the case of Omar Khadr, we do want the government to intercede and bring him home.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

And that is perfectly fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Any further items, Mr. Marston?

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

No, that's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

In that case, it's the government's turn.

Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I have a question, and then I'll give the rest of my time to Mr. Kenney, because I haven't been here. But I did go through our previous witnesses' testimony.

I always want to make sure we frame the argument in full, with all of its complexities. Mr. Khadr is facing very serious charges with the murder of a medic and the blinding of a sergeant 1st class. Even in our own Youth Criminal Justice Act there is a provision that if a crime is particularly heinous, and this has happened on our soil, a youth can be tried as an adult.

I'll read this previous testimony, which I wasn't here for, but I have it documented.

I'll read some of it back to you and then get your comment, Mr. Raghubeer. It reads:

So the idea that a soldier under the age of 18 can never really be a soldier and the claim that a 15 year old is not capable of genuinely consenting to serve are directly refuted by the text of the only applicable international instrument.

When Lt.-Cdr. Kuebler says that “children are never soldiers, they are children”, or General Dallaire says that “no one is allowed to use young people under the age of 18 in any way whatsoever,” their opinions are flatly contradicted by the official position of the United Kingdom, the UN Security Council, and the text of both the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Optional Protocol on the Involvement of Children....

I'd like you to comment on those comments that were made one hour before you, Mr. Raghubeer.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

I think those comments speak for themselves.

You did raise the comments made by General Dallaire in front of this subcommittee. As a Canadian, I would like to say that I was quite appalled by his comments comparing Canada and the system he's being tried under today to al-Qaeda. I think General Dallaire should have been a lot more responsible in respecting Canadian law, in respecting the American constitutional legal process, and in understanding fully what we're dealing with when we talk about al-Qaeda and this new strand of stateless actors who are aspiring to kill not only non-believers, but also lots of Muslims who do not share their views. I think Mr. Dallaire needs to review those facts and certainly apologize to Canadians for what he said.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Raghubeer.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I rarely ever do this, especially to witnesses, but certainly General Dallaire, who has served this country honourably, is a man with great integrity and respect for human rights. I'm appalled that it's turned into a question about his honour and service to both this country and to the rule of law. I think what he was trying to say more than anything else was the question of respect for international law and not to disregard international law. I think that needs to be put on the record.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Silva, I appreciate the intervention. That's not actually a point of order, which has to deal with whether order is being followed, but I appreciate that.

Let's turn this over to Mr. Kenney.

I won't take this out of your time, Mr. Kenney.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Raghubeer, we've had a lot of legal testimony. Of course, you indicated you're not a lawyer. I gather you represent an organization whose preoccupations and principal concerns are terrorism and national security. Obviously those are issues very much at the heart of the Khadr matter.

We have sought to call to this subcommittee as witnesses members of the Khadr family, so that we could better understand the context and motivation surrounding his recruitment and service apparently in the al-Qaeda network. But we have been unsuccessful. They have refused to cooperate with this subcommittee.

Given that you commented on the Khadr family and the environment in which he was raised, recruited, and put to the service of al-Qaeda, could you elaborate a little more? I actually have never seen the interviews. Mr. Marston keeps talking about his passionate disagreement with the opinions of the Khadr family. I don't know what they are, but I could guess. Could you summarize as best as possible? Perhaps you've studied the al-Qaeda movement, the Khadr family's sentiments. Can you explain what you think motivated Mr. Khadr to do what he did?

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

What did he do?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

What did he do? I gather he joined al-Qaeda, which is an international terrorist organization dedicated to creating an 8th century caliphate extreme Muslim dictatorship and to killing Jews and Americans and allies of the United States. I think that's what he did.

[An hon. member]

We're talking about Omar Khadr.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I encourage everybody to keep order here. The question was directed to Mr. Raghubeer.

You have the floor.

[Naresh Raghubeer]

Thank you.

In terms of what motivated Omar Khadr, I'm not exactly sure, as I've not spoken to him. However, when you look at the influences around him, you've got to start asking questions. What we as an organization have done is we've spent a fair bit of time looking at Islamic jihad, radical Islamic movements, and other terrorist movements, whether it's the Tamil Tigers or other non-state actors. We are concerned about the level of hate and incitement that is being broadcast to young people in Canada and abroad. I believe CSIS has also commented on the Internet being used to promote hate and incitement and even to recruit young jihadists.

We've seen the arrest of a number of young men in Toronto a few years ago. We've seen the London bombing. We've seen incidents in Madrid. We've seen incidents just two weeks ago in Jaipur, India, where jihadists were seeking to maim and kill innocent people.

What we have to do--I hope what Parliament will do--is begin to comprehensively review incitement in Canada and take steps to ensure that there are laws in place that prohibit the glorification of terror, that prohibit incitement, and that our law enforcement agencies will actively seek out and go after those who promote hatred and incitement. That includes parents who expose their children--especially their minor children--to such messages, whether it's in a mosque, whether it's in a gurdwara, whether it's at a temple, pick your place. But if parents are exposing their children to such views, it's incumbent upon all of us--especially Parliament and our law enforcement agencies--to ensure that does not continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Do you have any further questions?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

So you don't have any specific comment on the family--what they've said, what's on the record, their commentary on Omar's situation?

We've been at this for over a month; I haven't seen anything. Perhaps researchers have provided it.

Have we asked for a research report on that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

They've been sent to translation.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

All right. I'll take a look at those transcripts.

Do you have anything you could furnish us with, with respect to the atmosphere that apparently motivated Mr. Khadr to do what he did?

[Naresh Raghubeer]

I'll just comment briefly on a few of the family members. We know that his deceased father, Ahmed Said Khadr, was a friend of Osama bin Laden's. He was an alleged financier of terrorism. He sought to work with al-Qaeda; he moved his family to Afghanistan to do just that. And we know that from the views expressed by his family who remain alive today--it was Omar's sister who noted it--they all, the entire family, wished for martyrdom. Certainly that view, she noted, was shared by her husband. We know that Omar's other brother, Abdullah, is currently awaiting the outcome of deportation proceedings that could result in his extradition to the U.S. He is reputed to have purchased arms for al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, buying AK-47 mortar rounds and rocket launchers. We know that Ms. Elsamnah praised al-Qaeda and praised suicide bombing on CBC television.

But aside from these publicly available comments and views, the person who may know Omar and his family best would be his defence counsel, who in front of this very subcommittee offered condemnation of Maha and Zaynab Khadr. He went on to say that it would be appropriate for the U.S. government not to want to repatriate him in such a way that he would fall in line with them and other influences in his family.

There is clearly a problem in the Omar Khadr family. We need to recognize that and we need to take steps to ensure that any hatred and incitement, any quests for martyrdom, are not passed on to younger children who are within that family context today so that we do not create more young jihadists.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That concludes the time available for that question and therefore the questions for our witness.

Mr. Raghubeer, we thank you for coming before us and for your testimony.

We are now going to go in camera, so I'm going to ask the assembled members of the media and others who can't hear in camera meetings to....

I'll just finish my thought, and then please excuse yourselves.

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It's just that we have two and a half minutes left before twenty to two. I thought perhaps we might be able to get one more question in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

True enough, I suppose, if there's a willingness in the committee. I will look at who has used the least amount of time.

Strictly speaking, I suppose it would be either you or Madame Barbot, if there's a willingness.

All right, there's no objection.

Mr. Marston, just remember the time constraint.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'll watch the clock, Mr. Chair. Thank you. I appreciate that.

One of the things I want to be clear on—because it was alluded to in the conversation back and forth across this table—is that we have hate crime laws in Canada. Those are significant laws, and if anybody—the Khadrs or any other family—violates those laws or incites genocide, they certainly should be prosecuted under the law.

I think we're spending an undue amount of time here regarding the family, because it's clear. Your testimony was that the U.S. should not be repatriating him to Canada, according to Mr. Kuebler, if he was going to go into the bosom of his family. That has never been a suggestion here. We're talking about having him come back under due process of Canadian law and having him rehabilitated. He has one brother who has renounced the rest of the family, and that was the person whom the lieutenant-commander was suggesting it might be appropriate for him to return to.

I just wanted to get that on record, and it looks like I'm running out of time. Thank you.