Evidence of meeting #2 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iranian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shirin Ebadi  Iranian Lawyer, As an Individual
Payam Akhavan  Faculty of Law, McGill University

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

This is the second meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

We have as our guest this morning, and this is a really great honour, Shirin Ebadi, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate. Shirin Ebadi needs no introduction. Of course, whenever people say that, they then launch into a long introduction listing off the accomplishments of the person who's invited. I'm going to resist that temptation. For one thing, an excellent biography was circulated to you at the last meeting, and second, we have very limited time. You already know of Shirin Ebadi's remarkable accomplishments.

I will just advise you, before we begin, of a few housekeeping matters. One is that we only have Mrs. Ebadi, unfortunately, until 10:15. Is that correct, Minister?

9:20 a.m.

Calgary Southeast Alberta

Conservative

Jason Kenney ConservativeSecretary of State (Multiculturalism and Canadian Identity)

Yes.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

She has to be at DFAIT by 10:30. Given the weather and traffic conditions, that's a pretty tight timeline, so 10:15 means out that door. I think we have to be very respectful of that timeline.

Normally we give our witnesses, according to the rules we just adopted at our last meeting, ten minutes to make a presentation, followed by rounds of questions that are seven minutes long. I think under the circumstances, and I did survey this informally before the meeting began, it might be appropriate to allow our witness as much time as she needs to express her thoughts. I think we are here more to listen to what she has to say than to question her.

Yes, Mr. Kenney.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

I would like to remind the committee that Mrs. Ebadi is joined today, not as a witness but as an escort, by Professor Payam Akhavan, a professor of law at McGill University. He is a university colleague of Professor Cotler and is chairman of the Iranian Human Rights Documentation Centre. And he has been a witness before this committee.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you, Mr. Kenney.

Welcome to our guests, and we would be glad to hear from you.

9:20 a.m.

Shirin Ebadi Iranian Lawyer, As an Individual

First, I would like to say good morning, and I am very pleased that this opportunity has been given to me to talk to you. I also would like to express my thanks to the Government of Canada for being so interested in the issue of human rights in Iran.

In the past few years, most of the attention has been on nuclear energy rather than on human rights, which has been ignored. Canada has been the only one that has paid more attention to the human rights issue and has taken some steps in regard to that matter.

The Iranian government has signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But unfortunately, they didn't act the way they were supposed to with respect to the international law.

I am going to give you one of the issues, which was lack of attention to the international human rights issue. We had in the law a violation against gender and also discrimination. I am going to just point to two issues in that respect about the law.

The value of a woman's life is half of the value of a man's life. Therefore if there were an accident in the street, a man would receive twice as much as a benefit as a woman can receive because of that discrimination. In the court of law, two witnesses who are women have equal value to one man who is a witness. One man can have four wives. Without any meaningful reason he can just divorce a wife. Why is it exactly the opposite for a woman? Because it is basically difficult to have a divorce. And all the women in Iran, of course, are all upset about this matter and they show their rejection of these kinds of laws.

About a year ago, we had a group of people, more than a million people, who expressed their views in that regard against this kind of discrimination in Iran. This is the most peaceful way to express against views that are not acceptable. But up to now there have been more than fifty cases against those people who participated in that issue.

We also have the same kind of discrimination against other religions. There are only four religions in Iran that have been accepted as official religions—Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, and Zorastrianism—while there are many Iranians who are Baha'is and there are some people who do not believe that they should follow any established religion. They have no rights in the law. Even among those groups of religions that have been accepted there is discrimination against some of them.

There is very little right to freedom of speech. Even in the law of publications and media, there are limitations of expression against saying anything about constitutional law. They have closed many newspapers. The level of censoring has reached the level that even the Internet is not free.

Elections are not free. People cannot vote for those they want to vote for. The guardians have the right to approve those people who they think should be elected.

I would be happy to answer any questions you have.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much to both of you for that.

We have an order in which we normally go around the committee, so we will start with a Liberal member, Professor Cotler.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you, Mrs. Ebadi, for coming to appear before us today, and in particular for addressing the human rights situation in Iran.

I would agree with you that much more attention is being paid to the nuclear issue than is being paid to the human rights issue.

I was wondering if you might be able to advise us of the status of the case of Mrs. Kazemi, on whose behalf you have acted as lawyer.

9:30 a.m.

Iranian Lawyer, As an Individual

Shirin Ebadi

I am the lawyer of the mother of the late Mrs. Kazemi. We had several prosecutions.

Based on the decision that has been made by the court, the case has been sent to the criminal court to be taken care of. In reality, we have gone back to the first state of that issue. At the beginning we said it was manslaughter and it should be taken to the criminal court. The court didn't accept that and they said that was without preparation, the killing of Mrs. Kazemi, and the murderer cannot be known.

I had other reasons to offer. They didn't pay any attention to those arguments that I brought. Now they are going to pay attention to what I said four years ago. Of course, it could be considered as an improvement. But I have to also express my sadness that it has taken four years for them to listen to us, and we don't even know what the result will be.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Because we don't have that much time, I'll let others ask questions.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I haven't actually seen any hands going up; I'm simply going around the table. But we have some time left.

Would you like to ask a question, Mr. Silva, in that seven minutes?

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Yes, thank you.

Maybe you can make a comment on this. I realize that the population of Iran is very young. A lot of them are also very involved in blogging, using the Internet and everything else, which is fantastic. I think the hope for all of us for the future is that in that young generation will come an awareness of and respect for freedom and democracy, which will hopefully put an end to this brutal regime.

I wanted to let you know that I'm also working with young people in Toronto who are involved in bringing young gay people, gays and lesbians in Iran, who are very much persecuted.... I wanted to know if you could comment on the situation of gays and lesbians in Iran.

9:35 a.m.

Iranian Lawyer, As an Individual

Shirin Ebadi

It is a criminal act under our law to be gay or lesbian. If someone just mentions that they are a gay or lesbian, that is not against the law. They have to be considered to be acting as a lesbian or gay for it to be considered a criminal act. It is a very heavy punishment, especially for men, if they are gay. The penalty is execution. For women it is much less; it is one hundred lashes.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

All of us were quite shocked and horrified at the hanging of those two young men in Iran. Was there a public outcry in Iran as well? Were there people concerned about what happened?

9:35 a.m.

Iranian Lawyer, As an Individual

Shirin Ebadi

I can tell you that in principle, the people of Iran are not in favour of this kind of reaction by the government. One of the reactions that people have in respect of human rights is about the way the law has been applied, the kind of punishment in our penal code. We have cutting for thieves. We have the cutting off of hands and legs. We have stoning. We have lashing. People are against this kind of punishment, and we have been protesting for many years.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Madame St-Hilaire.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Caroline St-Hilaire Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Are you getting the interpretation?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Mr. Akhavan speaks French. He could translate this part, rather than going through two translators.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Mr. Akhavan, would you be comfortable doing the translation for this part?

9:40 a.m.

Professor Payam Akhavan Faculty of Law, McGill University

Certainly.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

In that case,

Go ahead, Ms. St-Hilaire.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Caroline St-Hilaire Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Ms. Ebadi, it is a pleasure to have you here. Even though we have read and heard a lot about you, it was still a very emotional experience to hear you speak this morning. I am very happy that I had this opportunity, not only as a member of Parliament, but as a woman. I just wanted to say that before I move on to my questions.

You spoke about the situation of women in Iran. On the eve of International Women's Day, what can Canada do to help Iran improve conditions for that country's women?

9:40 a.m.

Iranian Lawyer, As an Individual

Shirin Ebadi

When our women activists are arrested in Iran, please protest. Help us.

I mentioned recent events. One of our most famous women activists in Iran is Parvin Ardalan. Parvin Ardalan won the Olof Palme Award in Stockholm. When she went to Stockholm, she passed customs and sat in the airplane, which was Air France--I mention Air France because the airplane belongs to France, so it comes out of Iran--but police arrested her at the airplane and forced her to come back to Iran. They didn't let her go to Stockholm to receive her award. This began another case in the courts.

Please protest it. Please ask the Iranian government why it behaves this way.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Caroline St-Hilaire Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

You mentioned that elections were not in fact free elections. Do people want the situation to change? Could free elections possibly be held in your country? That would be a step in the right direction.