Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 6th, 2008

[Shirin Ebadi]

Based on the law that has recently been ratified in the parliament, which is against the constitutional law, the qualification and approval of those candidates who want to become a member of parliament should be approved by the Guardian Council.

When Mr. Khatami was the president, he brought a bill to the parliament so that this matter would be changed. And at that time, the group of reformists had the majority in the parliament and they approved that and ratified it. But even after that approval, because the Committee of the Guardians vetoed that, the result was therefore basically no good.

Mr. Khatami, the ex-president, tried once, but without result.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Mr. Marston, you have the floor now.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As with others, I'm very honoured to have you with us today. I spent six months in Saudi Arabia 30 years ago, and I saw first-hand the punishments you referred to. It's a very horrific place to live when you face that and then you combine it with a government that, let us say, does not relate to the principles of law. It's just a tyranny, for lack of a better term.

From what I understand from the messages I've been hearing over the last months and years, the problems in Iran are systemic. You can point to the leader of Iran today and say that's the problem, but I think it's far deeper than that. As I say, it's systemic. How do you believe that Canada could help change the status for the people, but also influence changes in the system?

[Shirin Ebadi, Interpretation]

You have already done some of those things you are talking about. One is that your relationship with Iran, which was at the level of ambassadorship, now has been decreased to the level of chargé d'affaires. You also helped us a lot in the respect that you have for the resolution in the General Assembly of the United Nations. These are the best marks to say that you have paid attention to the situation in Iran.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

First of all, thank you. I'm not going to take much more time, because I want to be sure that everybody else has an equal shot at this.

Again, thank you for coming before this committee. We know that when a person makes those choices, the reflection back home is not always the best. So I commend your courage for being here and I thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Marston, for your extreme brevity. That took only two minutes and 36 seconds.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I can tell you're watching.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That's right.

Now is the time for a Conservative member. I don't have anybody on my list, so I'll let you select among yourselves.

Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Again, Ms. Ebadi, thank you very much for being here.

I was reading back through some work that previous parliamentarians have done here in Canada. One of the witnesses was an Iranian film director. Excuse my pronunciation, but I think it's Makhmalbaf. Anyway, he said that there was a dictatorship mentality in Iran. I'm wondering whether with the unique dynamic that's in Iran right now, with 50% of the population being under twenty, you see that diminishing or whether you see that increasing as far as the capability of being able to stimulate the reform movement.

[Shirin Ebadi]

We have some positive promise for change. One is the young generation. As you mentioned, our generation is very young. They need freedom, they need jobs, so they cannot believe our government.

Another promise is the feminist movement in Iran. This is very strong, and all of them are against the government because of these discriminatory laws.

Another promise is a movement for our workers. Our workers are very poor. They are not in a good situation. One of their leaders, Mr. Osanloo, is in jail now, and many international committees are helping him.

So these three important promises are very positive for changing this situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Did you want to continue?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Madame Ebadi, thank you for coming before us. We all admire your courage. We know that to be an advocate for human and civil rights in a country like Canada is a privilege that involves no risks, but for you, we know that your witness on behalf of the Iranian people is an act of courage every day. We commend you for that.

I'd like to pursue the question asked by my colleague Mr. Marston, which is to seek your advice on how Canada can be of maximum help to advance the aspirations of the Iranian people for respect for human and civil rights and for democracy.

As you've indicated, we have been the principal sponsors of the Iranian human rights resolution at the United Nations. We have taken other significant steps to express our concern about specific and general human rights abuses, including our government's effort to seek the detention of Prosecutor General Mortazavi in Europe in September 2006. But it's my observation that when democratic western countries such as Canada make such gestures, the Iranian regime responds by downgrading our relations or persecuting our dual citizens, as was the case with your client, the late Zahra Kazemi, as was the case with Ramin Jahanbegloo.

Can you give us any more advice on how we can exercise our influence on the international stage without simply downgrading our diplomatic relations to nothing and without endangering Canadian-Iranian citizens who live in Iran?

[Shirin Ebadi]

All the people who are in the government in Iran are not the same type. There are some who are pro-reform, and there are some who are pro-fundamentalism. There are plenty of things that happen in Iran that people, as well as some of these reformers, are against. It is easy to realize that, even through the newspapers published in Iran.

In the specific case of Mrs. Kazemi, the reformist group helped us a lot so that justice would be done.

Therefore, when you talk about the violation of human rights in Iran, not only will the people be happy but also the group of reformers will be happy about that, because they are also criticizing them. They express their views very plainly and frankly. You can easily see that in the newspapers in Iran. There is not much freedom of speech in Iran, but you can see that in the newspapers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

That concludes the first round of questions.

I'm looking at my watch. We have just under twenty minutes before our guests have to depart. That gives us time for one set of questions from each of the parties.

We'll start with the--

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Mr. Chairman, I'm sure the committee would indulge you with a question, if you have one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Well, I'll save the best for last.

I'll turn it back to Mr. Cotler or Mr. Silva, whoever wants to go.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Recently an Iranian human rights activist, Ladan Boroumand, wrote an article about the untold story of the fight for human rights in Iran in which she described the birth, as she calls it, of a civil rights movement in Iran involving students, trade union workers, intellectuals, and in particular, the women’s rights movement.

What is the status and future of this civil rights movement in Iran, and how can we help with that birth of a civil rights movement?

[Shirin Ebadi]

The civil rights movement has been in Iran for several years. Fortunately, it has been done mostly by those people who live in Iran, and they are the people who will continue doing it, although it is true that those Iranians who are outside are also helping us. What I'm trying to say is that the movement started in Iran and the people of Iran are the people who are going to continue doing that.

I think the best thing you can do, in that respect, is to show your rejection and protest against that violation of human rights in Iran.

Please don't forget that the issue of human rights is not a domestic issue. It is an issue of international matter. Therefore, whatever happens in Iran is not in isolation. It also relates to the people in Canada and everywhere. As much as Iran has the right to protest against the violation of human rights in Kurdistan, you have the same right to say the same thing about violation of human rights in Iran.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

The Islamic Republic of Iran really is a theocracy, not a democracy, as you have said. It's rarely ever used, but it is a theocracy run by religious leaders.

It is a unique situation, because even with the resistance movements.... I asked a question last week on the arrest of two labour leaders in Iran. There are obviously groups within the labour movement, the women's rights movement, and the youth movement that want change. How do they go against the religious brigade or system that's in place there? In some ways it is so different from in so many other countries, because it is a theocracy run by religious leaders who are not willing to give up their power without a violent struggle. How does one bring about a peaceful transition to democracy in the country?

[Shirin Ebadi]

Like you, I believe there should be separation between governing the country and religion. But what about the situation in a free and democratic society when people elect groups that are related to religious groups, as happened recently in Turkey? Do we have the right to say your vote shouldn't be counted because you voted for a religious group? Do we have the right to say that the rest of the people should think like us? Obviously, no. Therefore we have to find another solution for this matter.

What I have found for that is a different definition of democracy. Democracy means governing by the majority. Please don't forget that many of these dictators reach their path through democracy. Therefore democracy cannot be without any limitations and control. Democracy has its own framework. It cannot be out of that frame, and the frame of that is respecting human rights. Governments do not receive legitimacy just by the vote of the people. A combination of the vote of the people and respect for human rights can give us that legitimacy. Therefore even religious governments should also respect human rights.

This is where we as Muslims can play a major role. We can prove that Islam is not against human rights and democracy. This is all challenged with the government through these means. We can prove that the Iranian government or Islamic governments are against human rights, not Islam.

Islam has many interpretations. Look at Saudi Arabia. A woman cannot even drive a car, but many years before in Tunisia, Bangladesh, and Pakistan, a woman could even be president or prime minister. Another example is that cutting off the hands of thieves is in our penal code, but many Islamic countries have banned it, like Tunisia, Egypt, and Malaysia. So which one is slow? Just like in the west, one church accepts gay marriages and one church completely ignores it. Most of them follow Christianity. Which one is right?

Islam is the same. It is our duty as modern Muslims to challenge the Islamic government that we can be Muslims and have more respect for democracy and human rights. In this way we start to challenge Islamic governments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

We have seven minutes left.

Mr. Marston, you have the floor now.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You speak of the potential evolution of your justice system and the reform of what some people would call barbaric laws, with the amputation of hands, eyes being put out, and such things. Canada decided it no longer supported the death penalty 32 years ago, so there's progress being made even in the so-called modern nations. Hopefully we'll retain that position.

One of the things that concerns me is we've heard in this place that the pursuit of nuclear weapons in some views is a real thing, and in other views it's a method used by the government, or particularly by the leadership of the government, to keep people radicalized and focused on Israel. Do you see a day and time when there will be co-existence between Iran and Israel?

[Shirin Ebadi]

Based on the report that has been given by Dr. ElBaradei, Iran did not do anything against the law and was working within the limitations of the law. It didn't violate the law in that respect.

On the other hand, the case is in the Security Council. Up to now there have been three resolutions against Iran. I have always suggested, in order for Iran to be able to have the trust of the international community that we are trying to have peaceful energy, that we can postpone the enrichment for a while.

This was a matter that Mr. Khatami did, and this matter has happened. We might be able to do the same thing again, so that there wouldn't be any additional resolutions, fourth and fifth, against Iran.

In respect to the relationship with Israel, I should say that for many centuries Jewish people have been living in Iran and it has always been a good relationship. What Mr. Ahmadinejad said is what he said. It's between him and the rest, not the people. There are Jewish people who are living in Iran. People have a very good and friendly relationship.