Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Sam Fanous]

The panel members need a lot more resources, a lot more sensitivity training. You have to bring their awareness to today's current issues. Some of them seem to have an old stigma. Some of them are quite partial, I would say. So we have to be sensitive when we have a Christian case being heard. Who do you appoint as the panel member? You don't appoint a panel member from the opposite group and pretend that this person is going to be impartial. That's not correct. That's not right.

We have to look at the mix of those panel members, the makeup of them, and the fair representation and the way they look at the decision. What sources do we look at? What access do they have to the international media and concrete information?

I have seen their library and I am totally unimpressed, and I would point that out today. They don't see that. We have seen cases reported in the Canadian media about corruption of some of these panel members. I am not trying to put them all down--some of them are excellent--but I'm saying we have seen a lot of these things. They need to be looked at again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We are actually out of time on this round.

Perhaps, Mr. Mahdi, you can summarize what you have to say in about 30 seconds.

[Naseem Mahdi]

I think it is my moral duty to also give a good story about the IRB. For the last so many decades now we have had an excellent relationship with the IRB and we have had almost 100% acceptance.

Secondly, I think with this new law, if I see it from the brighter side, the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has the discretion to decide from where people should be able to come. I think if they include the persecuted communities and pick up people who are really suffering in those countries, and if their cases are expedited, it would be a good way of helping them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you. We will now turn to the government side. I am going to see the clock as eight minutes before two. That will allow equal time for the final party and it will reflect the fact that a couple of others ran over.

Mr. Kenney.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks very much to all of you for taking the time to come to educate Parliament with the truth about what is happening to religious minorities in your countries of origin. This has been extremely helpful.

Mr. Mahdi, I know the Ahmadiyya community has from time to time been quite cautious about raising publicly in countries outside of Pakistan concerns about the persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan, for the prudential reason of not provoking whatever regime was in power there at the time. But it seems to me there's been a recent shift, somewhat, in the tone from you and the community. As you know, I discussed the matter with Khalifa Mirza Masroor Ahmad in London last year.

Could you explain to me whether there has been a decision to become more outspoken, thereby emboldening us as Canadians to act as stronger advocates for the Ahmadiyya community in Pakistan, Indonesia, and elsewhere? That's one question.

I have a similar question for my friends from the Coptic community. I know that Copts live in a very delicate relationship with the Egyptian government and that Pope Shenouda and authorities in the Coptic church are very careful about how they express publicly their concerns regarding the situation of your co-religionists in Egypt. Could you comment a little bit on that issue?

I think it might be a little misleading to some foreign governments and some parliamentarians that we don't hear this kind of robust advocacy of the rights of the Copts in Egypt, because people in Egypt are to a certain extent compromised by their delicate situation. I wonder whether you could comment on that.

[Naseem Mahdi]

I think we have all along spoken against the laws of discrimination against Ahmadis here in Canada. Many initiatives have been taken—I remember at the time Mr. Joe Clark was the foreign affairs minister, and later on with every government—and that pressure always worked.

But there is a dilemma. We have never promoted Canada's putting sanctions in place against Pakistan, because sanctions would create another type of suffering for common people. We are Canadian, but also we don't forget our roots. You are always at a loss to understand that if you put pressure on for these governments to be sanctioned, poor people will suffer, and we will be adding to the suffering, and perhaps it will not create any impression on the government.

But now things are getting out of hand and out of Pakistan; now this kind of nonsense is being exported to other countries, such as Indonesia and Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. If we don't speak out and if don't stop this kind of persecution, we would be perhaps helping those persecutors in their nefarious designs. So we have started this campaign once again, and hopefully we will be able to persuade the Government of Canada to show its interest in restoring the human rights of all minorities, not only of Ahmadis.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

By the way, in that respect I'd encourage you to go back and read the testimony yesterday from Pakistani Christians and other religious minorities in Pakistan who gave very compelling testimony.

[Sam Fanous]

I've been asked that question by many IRB panel members when I make my presentation about the Copts of Egypt. Then the popular question pops up—no surprise—“But the head of your church doesn't say that the Christians of Egypt, the Copts, are being persecuted.” Here is my classic answer: you cannot ask the prisoner about the jail guard while he's still in prison. You're asking the head of a church under siege. How could you ask the head of a church under siege and expect him to give you a free, bold answer? You cannot do that. But you can ask the Christians on the outside, such as us, who have families on the inside. We live on the outside and we know the facts and we are free enough to give you the facts. That's what it is.

If Pope Shenouda today were to take a bolder stand and say yes, there is persecution against my Coptic people in Egypt, what do you expect would happen? There would be a civil war, and more Christians would be wiped out, assaulted and massacred and killed.

The wisest thing to do while the church is still under siege, while the Christians of Egypt don't have any rights and representation, is to maintain the line that we are working with the government. We have problems—that's what he says—and we are working with the government to solve these problems. That's what it is.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

I have just two really brief questions. One is for Mr. Isaac.

You said there's only one Chaldean member of the Iraqi Parliament?

[Filham Isaac]

Only one.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

Are there any other Christians of any other variety in the Parliament?

[Filham Isaac]

There are a few Christians. They are currently in the KRG. They were appointed. We did not elect them.

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

The next question applies to both you and my friends from the Coptic community.

I've run into the same problems that you have in discussions with the IRB about their treatment of, their perspective on minorities, particularly Christians, in countries such as Egypt and Iraq, about their view as well. This is more directed towards people from Egypt. We can't consider all Copts in Egypt to be legitimate refugee claimants--this is ridiculous--and if we did, there would be millions of people. Shouldn't we focus the IRB on—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, did the secretary of state say that he has spoken to IRB members?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I'm not sure that's a point of order, Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

A point of clarification. Did the secretary of state just say that?

[Jason Kenney, Conservative, Calgary Southeast, AB]

As far as I know, I've actually never met anyone on the IRB....

People around immigration policy circles say the IRB has this point of view, which is prejudicial, they say, as you have, against Christian refugee claimants from countries like Egypt.

Is it not true that you should encourage them to focus on those Christians who are non-Muslims, who have intersection with Islam people who are accused of proselytization, or who marry a Muslim, or who convert, or who are prospective converts? Are those not the people who face the highest degree of unjust treatment, and are those the folks whom we should focus on? How do you deal with the objection that we can't possibly categorize all Copts as legitimate refugee claimants?

[Sam Fanous]

We never asked the IRB to consider all the Copts to be qualified claimants. But we did ask the IRB to really do the research and find out about the genuine cases. These Christians, who are a Coptic people of Egypt, who are applying as refugee claimants, how can you consider them genuine? What kind of proof should you expect?

It's very unreasonable to say, “Show me a document”. Who is going to present you with a document that some Islamic group decided to kill you? They don't issue a decree in writing to do that. When they issue a fatwa, show me some document about the fatwa. From some cleric sitting in some mosque, moving uneducated mobs to go out there and break everything in their way, what kind of document do you expect to have? These are unreasonable expectations on the part of the IRB.

We are not saying that the 15 million Copts of Egypt need to immigrate to Canada or come as refugees, but for those who are applying here--and before your own eyes--we're asking them to be reasonable in assessing the evidence they are looking at. But the fact that they are either biased against them or they are uneducated...they don't have enough information about the Coptic plight and they make their own decision. It happened to Mr. Magdi Youssef when he was sent back. This is a valid example.

That's what we are asking for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I'm afraid we are out of time for that round of questions and indeed for our meeting.

Let me thank all of our witnesses for coming here, and as well thank our members for their close attention.

Yes, Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Before we break, I want to just have clarification on what's happened with our future study or meeting. Are we in fact going to be having a study on what we've heard and come up with a report and call maybe a further witness? We just need to have a direction, because it might be our last meeting before the summer. I just want to make sure—

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I had sensed a willingness to do that, particularly from yourself, Mr. Silva, but also from others. We don't have time to make a firm decision, but I am inviting people to submit lists of potential witnesses. Or, if you wish, you can make a motion right this very minute to move that we have a further study.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

The motion, then, would be that we do a comprehensive study on the religious minorities from those specific...based on the motion that was put before the committee, and also based on the witnesses, and that we call further witnesses before the committee, so that this report could go on to the standing committee and then to the House.

I think this information is so important, not just for the public out there, but also even to deal with the Immigration and Refugee Board, to make sure they're also aware of our concerns and the testimony before this committee. We want to get that out there in public.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Everybody has heard the terms of the proposed motion. I will observe that this would make it much easier for me in terms of starting to collect lists of suggested witnesses from various party members.

Let me just ask. Is there a consensus to move forward as Mr. Silva's motion suggests?

Madame Deschamps, s'il vous plaît.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have a question for my own information, Mr. Chair.

Since my colleague Vivian Barbot was present at the beginning of the session and I was not, I would like to know if there was any discussion as to whether the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development should deal with the matter. Did Ms. Barbot discuss this at the start of the session?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

There was some discussion. I can't go beyond that, because it was an in camera meeting and we're out of camera right now. But Madame Barbot did raise a point that essentially summarizes what you've just said.