Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 20th, 2009

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming today.

I want to say publicly how impressed I am with the services provided by this department on behalf of Canada. It's very easy for us to be critical from time to time. I just would like to do that, because when you look at the files across the world that this department handles, and then you come specifically to Iran itself, it's such a complex issue.

I have a number of questions.

First, sometimes I look at Ahmadinejad as somewhat like the magician who keeps the hand moving up here while he picks your pocket over there. You almost hope that sometimes this rhetoric, this notoriously evil rhetoric, is masking something. In my sense of it, it might be the fact that they're abusing their own people, to a degree, and keeping the focus outside their country. I wouldn't mind a comment on that, because when you look at their elections, it's the supreme leader who picks everybody who runs. I'm not so sure that we have a black cat or a white cat, as Tommy Douglas used to say.

Second, I had a visit to Israel. That was just over a month ago that I was there. We had a couple of folks with us who had been in the IDF, and they were talking about 30 days as some kind of a limit before there might be some form of pre-emptive action by Israel. I'd like your comments on that.

Third, you brought us very good news about the release of that individual today. Thank you for doing that. One of my first questions would have been whether you had any updates for us.

Fourth is about the influence Iran actually has. How would you compare that to others, such as Syria or Jordan, in relation to Hezbollah and Hamas? Is it just the influence of dollars, or is it more comprehensive than that?

[Jeffrey McLaren]

Thank you.

I've heard Mr. Ahmadinejad called many things, and magician is not one, but there's a certain element of that.

In the early stages I think much of the western world looked at him as some kind of buffoon and not as someone to be taken seriously and as someone who was in way over his head. He's a much smarter man than the public persona he provides to the west. We cannot dismiss his threats, but sometimes he's trying to whip up domestic support, and saying nasty things about Israel unfortunately is one way to bolster his credibility in the streets of Iran and in some parts of the Arab world. We need to take his comments seriously, but also sometimes the perspective is that it's aimed more at the domestic audience. He knows when he says things like that the western world is going to get angry, and then he can look to his people as if he's standing up to the west. That's part of the domestic play on that.

As for Israel, I'm in no position to make any comments on what Israel's defence strategy will be. We are not aware of any 30-day approach. Israel has publicly stated it is not looking for an attack on Iran; it wants the diplomatic process to work its way out. We have no reason to believe that Israel does not want to see a diplomatic solution.

The influence that Iran has with Hezbollah compared to others.... Iran is probably Hezbollah's most important international ally. Hezbollah was created with the support of the Iranian government back in the 1980s. They are the main supplier of funding and other resources for the Hezbollah organization. I'm straying a little beyond my area of expertise, but it is our assessment that Hezbollah is not simply a tool of Iran; it has its own domestic agenda, its own domestic resources. But Iran is certainly its key partner. Syria is also very important for Hezbollah. It's hard to say which is more. I know more about Iran than I do Syria, so I tend to look at Iran as being key. Jordan is not a partner for Hezbollah; Jordan is a good partner for us. There are no connections that we're aware of between the Jordanian government and Hezbollah. Frankly, we'd be very surprised if there ever was such a connection.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thirty years ago I was in Saudi Arabia for six months. During that time I had many conversations with folks I worked with, and of course the United States was the great Satan. Often we focus on Iraq and Iran, but when you look at the people who were the 9/11 hijackers, a good number of them were Saudis. I presume--and I don't know this to be fact--that they were Shia, and you have the Shia group in Iran. I understand 70% of the population is young and not from the same religious faith as those in power.

What do you think are the chances of an overthrow of this particular government?

[Jeffrey McLaren]

In Iran?

I have just a couple of points. First, about 90% of Iranians come from the Shia faith.

It's hard to identify. At this time we don't foresee an overthrow or a revolution coming in Iran. The protest coming out of this last election has made a very significant change in the attitude of the Iranian people. There is always a veneer of democracy inside Iran where they would tell their people there's a democratic system on top of the Islamic republic. What we're finding is that many Iranians have thought this last election was taken from them. It has eliminated a lot of the credibility toward the system from the people in the streets. At this point it's too early for us to say how deep and how extensive that is, but it's very clear the Iranian people are looking at their government differently now than they were on June 11.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I was just wondering if the Shia connection from Iran to Saudi Arabia might have had something to do with the 9/11 attackers and whether or not Iran was actually a threat to Saudi Arabia as well.

[Jeffrey McLaren]

On 9/11, the attackers were all Sunni Muslims, many of them from Saudi Arabia, all associated with the al-Qaeda organization. The al-Qaeda organization is an enemy of Iran because of the Sunni-Shia split. We saw a lot of this in Iraq in the violence in the post-invasion period when al-Qaeda-related Sunni groups spent as much time killing and slaughtering Shia citizens of Iraq as they did American forces and others. So there is no love lost between al-Qaeda and Iran, and we don't really see a partnership on that element.

As for Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia has concerns about Iran, and its relations are difficult, but as neighbours, they need to work it out. They are not in favour of any kind of a military strike against Iran. They see that as causing more problems. There are difficulties back and forth. I wouldn't say they're enemies, but there are difficulties in the relationship.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That's all the time for that round.

We're on to Mr. Sweet now.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Certainly Mr. McLaren's answer, at least just previous to his comment on Saudi Arabia and Iran, demonstrates a complexity of trying to keep all of the extremist groups separated in a different enemy camp so that we know what's going on. I'm being facetious, only a bit.

Seventy people killed—or at least the opposition in Iran is suggesting that. There could be more than that. Certainly many have been jailed. Has the UN Human Rights Council commented on this situation?

[David Angell]

Thank you. I'm just inquiring as to the status of resolutions in the Human Rights Council. Certainly Canada has expressed its concern through the Human Rights Council, but I'm not aware of a resolution as such being adopted at this point.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I guess I wasn't aware of one either. So there's no sense in my asking you about what you're feeling and the effectiveness. I can't imagine that something of this magnitude would go without any kind of comment up until now.

Nevertheless, my colleague Mr. Wilfert talked about Russia. Could you also give us some insight into how you perceive China is engaging with Iran right now? Are we having some positive dialogue with them regarding the issue? Are they having some direct dialogue with Iran? Are they a help or a hindrance in this case?

[Jeffrey McLaren]

China is part of the P-5 plus one group that's looking at the unified approach to dealing with the question of Iran's nuclear program. It has a very strong commercial bilateral relationship with Iran and is looking increasingly as an investor in the country. That being said, it too has concerns about a nuclear Iran and has been working with the other members of the P-5 to keep a united international movement and pressure on. They're not the most eager member of the P-5 for sanctions, but to this point they have been going along, working with the other members, and we continue to see them as being a necessary positive force going forward. We need to work harder to convince them of the immediate nature of the issue.

China's assessment is that the problem isn't as imminent as some of the other members of the P-5 plus one believe. But in total, they're part of the system. They're working well with the group, and they are supportive and have voted for the three sanctions resolutions that the UN Security Council has passed to date.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Angell, do you have a comment on this?

[David Angell]

Thank you.

I should have mentioned that even in the absence of any resolutions being adopted at the Human Rights Council, Iran will be subject to universal periodic review in February of 2010, so there will be a structured opportunity for the members of the Human Rights Council to look very closely at Iran's conduct.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thankfully, we already were subject to one.

I wanted to ask you this. One of the issues—and we've dealt with this right in my constituency office—that is serious, I think, for new Canadians is the fact that when you travel to Iran, if you were an Iranian citizen, they don't recognize this new citizenship.

Is there more we can do? Are we getting the word out adequately of the danger of travelling to these countries and possibly not being able to exit because of the very nature of the way they look at citizenship?

[Jeffrey McLaren]

The Department of Foreign Affairs, on its website, has travel advisories for all countries in the world.

The Iranian travel advisory includes—this is my recollection, and it's been a while since I've looked at it—reference to the fact that Iran does not recognize dual citizenship and that a Canadian-Iranian citizen being arrested will not, in the eyes of the Iranian government, be considered a Canadian citizen. So that's on our travel website, which we advise all Canadians to review before they travel to other countries. I'll just double-check to make sure it's still there. I know it's been there in the past.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Can a person who was born in Iran and becomes a Canadian citizen actually travel to Iran on a Canadian passport?

[Jeffrey McLaren]

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe not. They will be seen on arrival. The Canadian passport has the place of birth and it will say somewhere in Iran, and the Iranians will request that an Iranian travel document be provided. That's my understanding.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Even if they did not want to sustain dual citizenship, the fact is that Iran will go against international convention and force these people to only enter as Iranians.

[Jeffrey McLaren]

The Vienna Convention on Consular Relations does not have sections in it for dual citizenship, and that's part of the problem we've been facing with Canadian-Iranians—with Mr. Bahari, with Ms. Kazemi—because there is no requirement under international conventions for states to recognize dual citizenship.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet.

We are back now to Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much. I'll just be very brief, because my colleague also wants to ask a few questions.

First of all, I want to thank the department for the work it has been doing with the Bahá'ís. It's a group we've been dealing with as well on our committee. We want to be very proactive on that file, because it is appalling the way they've been treated. Hopefully if there are also those who want to immigrate to Canada for reasons of persecution, they would also be expediting those particular cases. I think that would be greatly appreciated as well.

I think we are very much concerned about what's happening there in Iran. We've obviously, of late, been watching the news and are concerned about what's happening with the Baluchi population, not just in Iran but also in Pakistan, because it also covers a large chunk of Pakistan.

I don't know if you have been dealing with anybody from the Baluchi community and diaspora, or whether you are engaged with any NGOs internationally to deal with that issue, because the Baluchis as well have been denied their language rights, their cultural rights, and have also been persecuted by the Iranian regime. I was wondering if you could comment on the status of the Baluchi.

[Jeffrey McLaren]

I myself have not dealt with any Baluchi ethnic organizations in Canada, but in all our contacts with the Iranians on human rights issues, and in the resolutions we have put forward before the UN Security Council, we have called for respect for minority rights—cultural and linguistic rights. So that's part of our ongoing series of issues of concern with Iran. We are aware of the problems the Baluchis face, and that the Arabs and the Bahá'ís are facing. There are many different groups in Iran who are having difficulties with their minority, ethnic, or religious status.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I'll try this again.

The 1948 genocide convention has responsibility to prevent genocide and to punish those who incite genocide. On this issue of incitement, Mr. Cotler put forth a bill on June 9, the Iran Accountability Act. I'd be interested in your comments on it—in writing, given the limited time.

The other issue I would like to put on the table is the freezing of assets, one of the ways to get government's attention, and obviously that of the Iranian leadership. What are we doing on the issue of freezing assets, both of the government and of prominent business people who put money through this country?

Finally, on the Jundullah, the Soldiers of God, are there any comments you'd like to make on how you see that playing out, given the sensitivity of the Sunni insurgency in the southeast?

I would like certainly the first two responses in writing, if I could.

Thank you.