Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 24th, 2009

[Fakhteh Zamani]

Yes, that's correct. That's not in Iran, but there's a tribunal going on about the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

More specifically, what measures are you expecting to see? Amnesty International issues reports on its efforts, but what concrete steps do you expect Canada to take to address the problems that you have outlined to us today? Are there any concrete measures that you would like to propose to us?

[Fakhteh Zamani]

Every year I go through a round of meetings mentioning the annual resolution that was passed in the UN against Iran on the subject of human rights issues in Iran. Ethnic minorities were mentioned, but not extensively. One of our requests is to have ethnic groups be a very clear part of that resolution. Every year annual reports come from every country, and ethnic minorities are not mentioned. We would welcome a very clear resolution on ethnic minorities--it's possible--but as you can see, we have a long way to go. We would like to focus on awareness and the cultural genocide--a linguistic genocide that has been happening in Iran for the last 80 years. Ethnic minorities need international support to bring awareness to this issue, and we call on the different governments and the Canadian government to support us.

My organization is a Canadian-based organization that has been working tirelessly on this for three years, but we have very limited resources. We ask the Canadian government for resources to be able to do more. A resolution or any other help to bring awareness in Canada and the international community would be welcome.

I am going to attend the Durbin conference on racism. What is happening in Iran is a very severe type of racism and systematic assimilation. But unfortunately the international community is not aware of it, and this is the first time in the last couple of years that a few issues have come up.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Do you think the matter should be brought to the attention of an international tribunal?

[Fakhteh Zamani]

That would be fantastic. At this point that would be welcomed by ethnic minorities in Iran as well as Azerbaijanis. From 1945 there was genocide in Azerbaijan after the autonomous region was attacked by the Pahlavi regime, and thousands of people were killed.

Banning of the language in the region is cultural genocide. If this could go to the tribunal, it would be our dream come true. But at this point, what I am trying to say is that when I go to the UN I am still mistaken as an Azerbaijani from Azerbaijan. People in the world still don't know that there are millions of Azerbaijanis living in Iran. At the United Nations we would like to have a chance to speak.

I have spoken to the Canadian mission at the UN. I thanked them because they were the initiators of some of the meetings I have had in foreign affairs. I'm going back to Geneva to the UN and they have been a support, at least in the case of the connections to make this issue known. For our organization and the ethnic groups within Iran, any help from the Canadian government to bring this to their attention would be very welcome.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much.

We started to run a little over our time on the last two rounds of questions, so I'm going to go directly to Mr. Marston, and then we can see whether we need to have interventions for both witnesses.

We'll go to Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank each of you for being here. And the interpreter's late arrival is no problem at all.

I am, and I guess we all are, troubled by what we're hearing. Much of this is not new news. We've had previous witnesses talk about similar situations. Racism—and that's what we're talking about here—is something totalitarian regimes often use to keep control, especially if they're in a minority situation themselves. It appears that in Iran they've used racism to fragment that society and keep it contained.

I'm sorry if I'm going too quickly.

[Qumars Shahparaki]

No, that's all right.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Okay.

We also understand from previous witnesses that about 30% of the country's population controls the other 70%. I asked a previous witness about the impact of the Internet in raising dissent, because it's being shut down, and the newspapers and journalists and that, and that person seemed to think that it was working fairly well.

I'm pleased to hear that you're going to Geneva to the Human Rights Council. Have you noted any impact from the United Nations, any pronouncements at all that have had any impact on Iran?

[Fakhteh Zamani]

As I mentioned, I started not even three years ago. It was more than two and a half years ago.

At the United Nations we have had support, in individual cases, from a special procedure group in OHCHR, the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. They have been very supportive in individual cases we have submitted to them of human rights violations against ethnic minorities. But we have not had access to the rest of the UN. because of the limited resources we have--my organization, other ethnic minority groups, and human rights activists. It's a huge issue for a few people or one or two organizations to tackle.

In a general sense, I attended a minority forum and I had time to address the forum. Other than that, we have not had a chance. We are working on it. I am going to a German conference to raise the issue of racism, but other than that, we have not.

Actually, I had plans to go back and speak to the Canadian mission, to Joe Hinton and others in the mission, to see if they would support us in getting a seat so we would have the right to speak at the General Assembly and at other events. We could bring more attention if the Canadian government would be willing to support us and also guide us. We are limited in resources, with the minimum resources to tackle the issue. First bring awareness in the international community, then see where we go from there.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Batebi, something I think should be made known to people at home who have taken the time to watch is that as a student activist, you found yourself in prison for nine years. I just wanted to acknowledge the courage it takes to continue dissent after that time.

We often sit here in this committee and we hear the words “torture” and “mistreatment” being used. What life is like in a prison is talked about in very general terms. I don't want to invade your personal privacy, but would you tell us a little bit about what it is like in an Iranian prison day to day? It appears to me that torture and execution is systemic in this country.

Could you comment? And if you prefer not to, that's fine as well.

[Ahmad Batebi]

As you mentioned, it is systemic and designed, engineered, to be that way. The government has three goals.

First, they would like to get information on the future plans of various activist groups. These might be students, workers, labourers, or members of other associations.

The second act is torture. It is necessary to apply pressure so that they come to a point where they are not willing to continue these activities. This is for the rest of the people, so that they will be informed about what would happen to them if they were involved in that kind of activity. This happened while I was in prison, and I have to say that it is still happening now.

If you are interested, I might be able to give you some documentation regarding this issue. But this torture that I suffered is something I can tell you about.

I was kept for 17 months in a small room by myself, and that room was no more than a washroom. This situation caused health problems. They took me twice for execution. In one case, I was taken for execution with a group of others. Of course, I was not executed. I was in the middle, with one man on the left and another on the right. They blindfolded us and forced us to stand on top of a chair, as if to hang us. They pulled my blindfold aside a bit so I could see what was happening to the other two. These were people who were imprisoned next to me in small cells. I saw their execution.

Once, for 72 hours they didn't let me sleep. They cut me and put salt in my wounds. If you're interested, I can show it to you. If you want details, please let me know.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

My reason for asking the question is that the “Hollywoodization” of torture has predisposed some of us to a certain view of what it's like. It can be of a far more psychological nature. That was the point I hoped would come out. I want to thank you for sharing this.

[Ahmad Batebi]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My colleague was going to a place very similar to where I was going in the sense of speaking to my colleague beside me and just mentioning the extraordinary indomitable spirit that our two witnesses have and, of course, those like them in Iran who consistently put up with the treatment that they do. We commend you highly for being before us today and for continuing to take risks in order that other people might be free.

Mr. Chair, I've been to Yad Vashem, Israel, and there is a chronology of the Holocaust. What really concerns me with the testimony today and the previous testimony is that all of the elements that were precursors, harbingers, of the Holocaust are at play in Iran today: the arrest of individuals with trumped-up charges, the elimination of freedom of the press, and then of course very disturbing is the demonization of particular cultures through the press, which is controlled by the state. I just see that ever-increasing with every witness we hear.

Although I only have a limited amount of time, I want to put a question to you specifically, Ms. Zamani, because there's one issue that I was not familiar with. You said that in your quest for defending human rights you actually were attacked by some opposition groups. Can you educate us a bit on that dynamic, which is just one more challenge in trying to get the word out?

[Fakhteh Zamani]

Yes, and that's not the only case. Whenever I speak, I am nervous. Sometimes I look at the audience....

It's not just me. If you speak to anyone who tries to bring up the issues of ethnic minorities, they will tell you that opposition groups outside are sometimes much harsher. In my meetings, I always mention that. Sometimes I say that I don't know which one is worse, the Iranian government or opposition outside.

That is very hard for some people to hear, especially in the United States, where they think these people are human rights activists or democracy promoters. But some people attacked me in the U.S. Congress. One was the director of a democracy group. It was an eye-opener. I was trying to explain, in my meetings with U.S. Congress members, that we didn't know which one was worse. Only when they saw it could they believe how harsh people could be.

The previous government identified Persians as Aryans. Azerbaijani Turks and Semites are not, obviously, Aryans. The same thoughts carried on after the fall of the Pahlavi regime. Outside, we are considered foreigners. We are considered invaders. We are considered as not Iranian. If we do not assimilate and become Persian, or Persianized, we are basically marginalized. But after we become Persian, we are part of society and we have access to power.

In Iran, even though this government is now called an Islamic government and they are not supposed to look at the racial aspect--their priority is implementing laws of Islam--it's very ironic that the same thought form carries and the same racism goes on. Recently, for example, in the money they've printed, one of bills says that the Prophet has said that Persians will reach the highest glory of such-and-such, while the others are just basically again marginalized.

The state-run newspapers censor everything. Everything is checked thoroughly. Yet somehow they printed a cartoon of an Azerbaijani cockroach not understanding Persian. On top of that, they showed ten ways to exterminate cockroaches. It was a very insulting and very disturbing playing out of how cockroaches can be exterminated.

Also, it is very disturbing to say this, but now, even outside, jokes about Azerbaijanis being donkeys are very common. I don't take those jokes in Canada. Sometimes I am asked by some Iranians why I am not cool, why I.... But I'm trying to say to people that racism has been embedded into society, and it is unfortunate. Minorities are attacked, but the whole bed of society has a social disease that has not been addressed. And still, to many, it doesn't even exist.

That is what we are dealing with outside. I have been in Canada for 12 years, so I consider myself Canadian. I am safe here, and everything is good for me. But after starting this work, I can see what is the challenge. I think many members of my community are paralyzed. When they are attacked by these groups, they are paralyzed. I don't understand, because I have been taught here to stand for my rights as an immigrant.

I am accepted. I am part of this society. But where I was born, if keep my identity as Azerbaijani Turkic, or if I ask for my language rights, or if I ask for equal rights like the others have, like the Persians have.... I have nothing against them. There are many wonderful ethnic groups, ethnic Persians, but unfortunately, we are not tolerated. That is the biggest challenge we have. And now I see why my community is very afraid to address these issues.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

How is my time, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You're 20 seconds over your time.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

If I could just finally ask our kind clerk to follow up with Ms. Zamani, I would like to have a list of those opposition groups that are obstructing getting the news out, because that should be part of our examination as well. If there is going to be another impediment, then we should identify that very clearly in our future report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

All right. Thanks very much.

Mr. Cotler, you're next.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to ask Mr. Batebi a question. It'll be the same one for Ms. Zamani. If I have a chance, I'll put a second question.

Mr. Batebi, 10 years ago in 1999, when you were then a leader of the student movement, your picture appeared on the front page of The Economist. At the time, you were holding up the blood-stained shirt of a fellow protester. It became a kind of iconic photo, which went around the world, as to the plight of students in Iran and, really, the human rights situation in Iran. You were then sentenced to death. You were nine years in prison. Fortunately, you escaped and achieved refugee status in the United States a little less than a year ago.

Here's my question. From the perspective now, looking at the situation then, to the extent that you can appreciate it, is the situation getting worse with regard to human rights in Iran or not, and not only with regard to students, but what are the trends? Are things getting worse? If so, are any groups in particular being targeted and it is getting worse for them? That's my question.

Ms. Zamani, you mentioned the uprising three years ago, but again, you've been away for 12 years now. As best as you can appreciate it, is the situation regarding human rights in Iran getting worse? If so, why?

We'll start with Mr. Batebi.

[Ahmad Batebi]

First, I would like to thank you for the question.

I can assure you that the situation is getting worse. I am sure Ms. Zamani is going to certify that by saying the same thing.

The first reason for this is that 10 years ago the situation for the government was different, because Mr. Khatami was President and was a reformer. Although during his presidency they had not done much, at least the talk was there. Although the verdict then was execution for me, because of him and because of the situation I was not executed. If it were now, for sure I would have been executed.

I can give you statistics and numbers related to labour activities and to students and other social groups who have been involved in different activities regarding freedom. You will realize that the numbers then were better than the numbers now. Societies are supposed to improve themselves. We don't see such a thing.

In order to explain this matter, I need two minutes to define what I want to say. I am sorry that I have to take that much time, but I think that is necessary to say this.

Iran is the only country among the Muslim countries that is Shi'ah in the administration and in the total population. Therefore, their definition of Islam is a different definition from that in the rest of the world.

In this division of the faith, the philosophy is that the leaders of the Shi'ah section, at the end, one day, were supposed to wait for the Promised One who is going to come and correct everything. Therefore, those who are the leaders of their religion were supposed to create the atmosphere so that the Promised One would come. In order to have final justice, the situation should become so bad that the necessity of the Promised One would be justified. And this is one section of the people who are believers of this faith. The other group believes you're supposed to do nothing and wait for the day the Promised One is going to come.

The President at this time, Mr. Ahmadinejad, is under the influence of the first group I mentioned. Therefore they are not afraid of violations of human rights, violations of freedoms.

You may have doubts about what I said because it doesn't make sense, but if you do a little bit more investigation about the clergypersons in Iran, you will find that the group called Hojjatieh are the followers of this mentality.

For me, this approach is a sort of anarchy. As you have seen in the past, the action of President Ahmadinejad is to deny the Holocaust or have a lack of respect for freedom or for women in Iran. It is in that direction. This is based on the philosophy of disturbing the situation, creating a mass, so that the situation will be ready for the Promised One to come.

The other thing of course is the different approach that they take on a daily basis of laws and regulations of the judiciary in Iran, based on that. Therefore, their hands these clergy people are completely open to do their own interpretation of anything. If a clergyman is in power, that clergyman could do the interpretation in the way he wishes, even for their personal interests.

It may be ironic to realize that even some of the clergy people who do not belong to that group may do a different interpretation of the religion, as some well-known clergy people in Iran have said that the Bahá'ís should be considered citizens like the rest.

In this situation, a few groups have been harassed more than others. First, there are the Bahá'ís and Christians in Iran, and especially those Christians who were previously Muslims and who switched to Christianity. The other group is those who are not thinking in line with the administration, like those who have done a good education outside or writers. And the third group, which is a major group, are the women in Iran. They have been harassed, and their activities in respect to social issues or others have been denied.

First, I would like to apologize for the examples that I am going to make. This is in respect to women's issues in Iran. Especially accept my apology towards the ladies in that issue.

In Iran, based on the faith, if someone kills a man, he has to pay some amount of money for the killing of that person. It is the same for women. And of course if you lose part of your body, then you have to pay a different rate for that crime. For different crimes, you have to pay different rates.

I'm sorry for expressing myself in this way, but I have to.

The amount paid for killing a woman is not exactly the same as the amount paid for killing a man. Therefore, if someone kills a woman, the amount that has to be paid for the crime is equal to the amount that has to be paid if a person puts a man in the position of losing his manhood. If a man therefore loses his manhood and is unable to be sexually active, it is the same amount that is paid for the life of a woman. I hope this is clear. If women tried to change this kind of law, they would be in trouble and could go to jail.

I don't have anything more to say. Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you. We did allow you to go on considerably longer because it was obviously of keen interest to everybody.

I see that the clock is showing seven minutes before 2 p.m., which gives Mr. Hiebert time to ask his questions.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I won't need seven minutes, but I want to ask a couple of questions.

Thank you again for being here. Are you concerned that by testifying here today, you, your friends, or your family are being put at risk?