Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 26th, 2009

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

Human trafficking, the selling of children and the abduction or deception of children, has become a larger problem. As the U.S. State Department report says, India is the destination and the source. Now there is evidence of Indian children and girls being trafficked into Middle Eastern states and other places, including Burma, the U.K., the U.S., and even Canada.

A story broke last year in the U.S. that minor children were brought into the home of a rich upper-caste family. The children had basically been trafficked. They were abused and sexually violated. The whole thing became a media thing and spilled over. Now we are extremely concerned when any Indian couple or family wants to take servants who are minors outside of India, because this has become a primary conduit for human trafficking across the world. When children are taken out through these means, or through adoption, it's a means of trafficking our Dalit children.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to share the balance of my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Sure.

Ms. Smith, you have two minutes.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Doctor. I'm so glad that you came today. Your voice here at this committee in Canada means a great deal, because human trafficking is a global concern, and it's one we're addressing here in Canada right now.

Having said that, do you have any ideas as to how to bring this up to the global conscience radar screen? I'll give you an example. Here in Canada, I was very surprised when I became a parliamentarian that no parliamentarians knew much about human trafficking. If I hadn't had a policeman son, and if I hadn't been on the streets with the victims, I wouldn't have known either. You're talking about something in India that has gone on for a very long time. Have there been any talks at the government level in India with Canada and the United States about how we could make this awareness come to light? Slumdog Millionaire, the motion picture that just came out, was very compelling, and now I believe is a very good time to take action and move forward on it.

Do you have any ideas in that area?

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

There is an increasing amount of material now available in India and many other places about the size and the scope of the problem. I think one idea is to bring awareness to all our lawmakers across the world about the size of this problem. This is not a small issue. Modern slavery--human trafficking--is bigger and worse than slavery ever was in South Africa or the United States 200 years ago when people were taking slaves out of Africa. It is far worse. Far more millions are now being trafficked and sold into modern slavery.

Just bringing that awareness, and then the appropriate legislation, and then intervention in terms of education and getting into these communities.... The honourable member said one answer to this is to increase the available resources in providing education for these communities that have no hope for their children.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

In terms of the immigration system, often these children from other countries are brought in. We apprehended six children--I can't really speak about the case--in Montreal about three weeks ago. They were being flown in from another country. Tell me what you think Canada and other countries could do to ensure that these children coming through our borders are legitimately coming in for the purposes that they are designated to come in for? They're coming in under false pretences in droves. These people are accompanying them, and then they're putting them out for sexual exploitation.

Do you have any ideas on that?

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

One principle that we are suggesting is that when non-relatives--meaning not family, somebody who is not related--are bringing a child into the country, antecedental research be done and a trail be made before they're allowed. If you don't do that, you won't know where they came from, who brought them, what certificates they have, who their parents are, what their address is. In India this is all abduction. In many places, it's all lies. “You come and I'll give you a new job. I'll take you to Bombay.” And the next thing they know, they are put in the gulf. So there are no antecedents; there's no documentation, nothing. There must be a search and a demand that without proper documentation on where minors are coming from, they just cannot bring these children, however wealthy they are. This should not be driven by the economic competency of somebody who's bringing kids into the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, that uses up the time. I actually allowed you to go two minutes over.

Mr. Silva is next, and then Mr. Sweet. I just want to make the point here that Mr. Hiebert is making a statement in the House immediately at 2 p.m., and our two guests wanted to go and watch that. On that basis, I think we have to be quite strict in enforcing the two remaining time slots at five minutes each.

Mr. Silva, please.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The questions that were raised today are quite important, especially on the issues of human trafficking and child trafficking, because those are things we're all concerned about, wherever in the world they take place. We certainly can't single out any countries, because we know this is happening throughout the world. We even hear cases of it happening here in Canada. So we're very much alarmed and concerned about the whole issue of both human trafficking and child trafficking.

When you speak about the untouchables, the Dalits, which you say represent about 180 million people, we know that India is a democracy--it's the world's largest democracy--and 180 million people represent a sizable amount of the population and a sizable voting bloc. What is the representation they have? I was told that in fact there are ministers from the Dalit community as well, so the impression I'm getting is that they have no voice, but in fact they do have some voice because they're able to vote in India, because it's a democracy.

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

Yes. We have to accept and admit that provisions were given in the constitution to the Dalits in a variety of areas called reservations or affirmative actions. Policies were also given in the political sphere, where reserved constituencies were kept for the Dalits, and a certain amount of reserved constituencies of Dalits are brought into Parliament.

It is also true that increasingly there is an emerging strong voice among the Dalits about their political and their social rights within the nation, but compare it to the size of the problem when the government classifies the scheduled caste and the scheduled tribes as 250 million people. Compared to this, sir, as a bloc, was the 5% Brahmin upper caste in the nation, who systematically have ruled every political sphere and party in India for 60 years. No Dalit party or group has had anywhere near even a 10% political influence in the country for 60 years.

When you look at the caste breakdown and what is playing out in Indian politics, the sad thing is that 60 years on, after independence, when 25% population is outcast and discriminated against, the political processes should long have led them to have a huge say in governance, a huge say in the vehicles of government, etc. They are still fighting. The Dalits in India, including the politicians, are still fighting for a seat in the Supreme Court among the justices. They are still fighting.

That is the anomaly and the paradox of India. At one level this is going on, and there is the positive side, but on the other side is a social system that is not allowing this to become what it should be. If the system is abolished, there is a level, equal playing field.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I've heard your comments, but I just wanted to get clarification. Would you characterize this whole situation as apartheid? Apartheid has been used somewhat loosely here. The situation with what happened in South Africa was a monstrous, hideous situation, where in fact the blacks were living in slave-like conditions and did not have a voice to exercise electorally. They didn't have a voice or anything at all in terms of mobility and so forth. Would you consider that the Dalits in India are in the same situation?

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

Dalit leaders who came to Durban, sir, in South Africa carried banners saying that caste is worse than apartheid. The fact that a running prime minister of the country has compared untouchability to apartheid, whether it is actually playing out as apartheid played out in South Africa--

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you for your remarks, but I just wanted to get clarification from you: do you consider it apartheid?

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

I consider the practice of untouchability worse than apartheid.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

That's all I wanted to know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, then, Mr. Silva.

Our last questioner is Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'll try to be as brief as I can.

You mentioned villages with no girls over five years old, and then you mentioned a term that I want you to clarify. You said they were sold into slavery. Are you suggesting that, because of years and generations of degradation, some of the Dalits actually are complicit in keeping their own kin and brothers and sisters captive?

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

Years of degradation and centuries of degradation, etc., have compounded the problem. A host of issues are at play. One of the great issues at play, because of a society that does not give equal value to human beings, is the value of a girl child. So Dalit parents are complicit in selling their children, especially a girl child, because the girl child is a beast of burden.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I have six children. I can't even fathom that. I can't approach that at all.

You said not a single Indian around the world does not know what caste they're from. Do you think that because in fact some emigrate to western society and then deny the fact that there is a caste system, it also worsens the situation?

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

Sir, the caste system has been shielded--the impact, and the way the caste system works out. There are children of the upper caste who are shielded from that by their parents and all, so there is that growing consonance in India, which is largely urban, that would say it is not there.

All they have to do is move out of their urban context, 30 kilometres outside of Mumbai or Delhi, and then they find this is at work where they are. They know where they are because caste plays one of its pivotal roles in marriage. Inter-caste marriage between a Dalit and an upper-caste person is such a complex thing.

You have had your own case in Canada. A Sikh woman had her own daughter and low-caste husband from India murdered because she married inter-caste. These kinds of honour killings are going on from both sides, with the Dalits and the upper caste participating when it comes to marriage.

Marriage is where it all plays out--who you marry. People make sure they marry within that particular caste frame. Anybody who dares, then, is under threat and persecution.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Dr. D'souza, thank you very much. Time is always our enemy here. My estimate is that you probably have 60 seconds.

We desire to increase our trade with India. Business people are going to desire to increase their trade. What can Canadian business people do to make sure they are not complicit in this, to assure that they're factors in ending the problem, not aiding and abetting it?

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

Sir, just as there are the Sullivan Principles in relation to apartheid in South Africa, we have developed a set of principles called the Ambedkar Principles, which I'd be more than happy to send. You all can have them. The Ambedkar Principles guide industries and companies in their association with India so that when they go out....

We want everybody to do a lot of business with India. We need economic development and all of this opening up of the economy. We can see both the positives and negatives of globalization. We want Canadian businesses to be aware when they go out to India, so that they're not unknowingly perpetuating caste discrimination. We want to have, in dealings with Canada and America, people on boards and on committees so that when they're recruiting and placing they do so with knowledge of how this works.

We are not asking at all for affirmative benefits for Dalits. We are just asking for equal opportunity, that's all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you to both of our witnesses today.

I'll just mention to both witnesses, if you have any documents such as what was just discussed, please submit them to the clerk. He'll ensure that they are translated into both official languages. They can then be circulated to all committee members and become part of our records.

That completes our questioning. We've arrived at the end of our time. Given that our witnesses would like to go to see Mr. Hiebert's SO 31, which, I believe, is a statement on the subject of the plight of the Dalits, I'm going to ask them to be escorted up by my assistant, Sarah LaFreniere. That completes our meeting for today.

[Dr. Joseph D'souza]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We are adjourned.