Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 13th, 2010

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Fair enough, but that's why I'm saying that in the short period of time we have, it's very hard to get to some of these inconsistencies. I want to make note of a few very important key pieces here.

When Mr. Obhrai, our parliamentary secretary, visited in December, he got to speak with Nathalie. It was as a result of his visit that the Human Rights Commission in Saudi Arabia became engaged. In fact, furnishings were also provided by the Human Rights Commission, thanks to Mr. Obhrai's interference, and also Mr. Obhrai and government officials—

[Johanne Durocher]

Excuse me--

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I only have a short period of time. I'm sorry. We did give you more than half of—

[Johanne Durocher]

There's a very big mistake.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

That's why I'm saying there are two sides to this, and we need to get to the bottom of it.

[Johanne Durocher]

You go very fast with your mistake. We don't have time to say anything on it.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Your mistakes as well were done very quickly--

[Johanne Durocher]

I don't think I make mistakes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Go ahead, Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I think we had opening remarks of about 35 or 40 minutes. My colleague has a couple of moments, and she's been interrupted now multiple times. I think she's trying to make a couple of points if she could, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We'll let Ms. Glover finish the points she has to make, and then we'll turn it over to Madame Durocher or others for response. It may cause us to go a little bit past the five minutes we've allocated for this, but that way both individuals get a chance to—

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I wish I had more time so that we could actually do a dialogue, but unfortunately that's not the way the committee works. I have five minutes and only five minutes, so please let me finish.

Mr. Obhrai and the minister have been working very hard on this. In fact, Mr. Obhrai and government officials have visited the home repeatedly, and the Human Rights Commission has visited the home repeatedly. We can never, ever forget that there is no constitutional obligation--and I take issue with what you said, Monsieur Beaulac—

[Stéphane Beaulac]

Read the cases.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

May I finish?

There is no obligation to help Canadians when they are abroad, because the charter only applies in Canada. I wish it might be different, but unfortunately the charter only applies in Canada, and once a Canadian leaves Canada, that person is subject to the laws and regulations of the state they are in. We cannot impose Canadian law in sovereign states. The fact remains that this is still a custody issue and that the father in Saudi Arabia has rights too, which we as Canadians cannot erase.

That comes down to the point that needs to be made here today. We would like to help Nathalie be repatriated. That will not change. We are ready to repatriate Nathalie. We cannot, right now, through any means, law, or regulation repatriate children who are Saudi citizens, because their father has rights in the country of origin. That is just the way it is. We are continuing to monitor. We are going to continue to monitor, because our government believes that we ought to be monitoring. However, this is a complex case that requires more time than what we've been allotted--

[Stéphane Beaulac]

More than four years....

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

--and I assure you, the government is on it.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chairman, is the time finished?

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

One last comment--

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Yes, but I did say we'd have a little extra time here for the response.

Madame Durocher, s'il vous plaît.

[Johanne Durocher]

Nathalie was repatriated only once—in 2006, at my expense. When Mr. Obhrai visited Nathalie, Ms. Huda Alsunnari, from the Saudi Arabian Human Rights Commission, was present. She had already been working on the case for several months. The Human Rights Commission had been dealing with the case before Mr. Obhrai's visit. I also want to point out that I recently spoke to Mr. Al-Qahtani. I am not sure that I have his name right. He is the vice-chair of the National Society for Human Rights in Saudi Arabia. He did not know who was dealing with Nathalie's case, either at the embassy or here in Canada.

I would just like to close by saying that Saeed Al Shahrani sent a letter last week, in which he stated that if the Canadian government wanted to repatriate Nathalie, he would not be the one to decide. Rather, Prince Naif and his government would have the final say. However, if the Canadian government does not negotiate with King Abdallah, Prince Naif or the Department of the Interior, Nathalie will not be able to return. That is what Saeed said, and I have that in writing. Saeed is not the one who will make the final decision; the government and King Abdallah will.

[Stéphane Beaulac]

This case is not about whether or not the Canadian charter applies extraterritorially. This case is about consular assistance to the benefit of a Canadian citizen in a situation of peril abroad. It is a red herring and an excuse to invoke issues of extraterritoriality.

Decisions on diplomatic protection are made in Ottawa on Canadian soil. Even a first-year law student knows they are submitted to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Second, whether or not my expertise is in family law is, in my view, irrelevant, because the problematic aspects with regard to Nathalie Morin involve international law.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chairman, this is absolutely germane to the closing comments of Madam Durocher. Minister Cannon did meet with the prince today regarding this case. He spoke with him today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay. Thank you.

[Marie-Ève Adam]

May I add something?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Please do, but be brief. When you're finished, I'm going to ask that someone stay behind to provide any documents you might have to our clerk, who will take them and distribute them.

Please go ahead, Madame Adam.