Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 3rd, 2010

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

I think you're referring to the Governor of Lara and the former director of the national body for catástrofes and...?

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Oui.

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

I would say that indirectly, yes, but not directly, because in the case of the Governor of Lara, that was one of those clear cases when Chávez said in camera one day, “We want to expropriate the warehouses of Polar.” Polar is the largest producer of food in Venezuela, and it is now under severe pressure by the government. The plants and the places they wanted to take from Polar were in Lara. The governor refused to do it because he said Chávez's motive was allegedly to construct housing developments there. The governor refused to do that because he said, “This is not a place for housing, this is a place for industries, and that's part of the plan of the city. I want to talk to the people here, open a dialogue with the owners of Polar and find alternatives.” I think the word “dialogue” was not something President Chávez liked very much, so that produced a confrontation.

In the end he resigned from his party and went to another party. Now he's facing a trial and persecution. He's being openly called a traitor and everything.

So he was indirectly linked to this particular case, which also has to do with property rights.

In the case of the former director of secret protection, or whatever it's called, he didn't directly mention human rights. But he called a press conference where he made very serious accusations—I cannot give you details because it is not the area of my concern—about the presence of Cubans in the armed forces. That was all.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

We have heard testimony like yours, but we have also heard different viewpoints. As for some radio and television stations losing their licence, some claim that these stations were calling for the government to be overthrown through violent means.

Would you care to comment on these claims?

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

I don't need to answer that directly. I could refer you...and if the committee is interested I can pass you the information later. The formal excuse is that the time for their permission or authorization is over. You can say in practice it has to do with some political motivation, such as accusing them of being friendly to people who are conspiring against the government. That's the informal excuse. But the formal reason that has been used has always been framed as a legal decision. In the case of Radio Caracas Televisión, it was that the permit was over and they had decided, because they were sovereign, not to renew the concession.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Regardless of the reasons or motives, official or otherwise, what do you make of the oft-heard claims that radio and television stations were calling for the government to be overthrown through violent means?

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

If that were the case, the procedure would have been a penal trial, not an administrative decision to take off the antennas or the signal. One can say that in an environment of polarization in Venezuela, both blocks, if you want to call them that, have been extremely aggressive in the media—the government-owned media as well as the opposition. I don't remember any specific call for overthrowing the government. If that were the case, there should have been penal procedures, not administrative ones, against anyone who was responsible for it.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you.

According to some people, the issue being debated is political and legal rights. However, insofar as socio-economic rights are concerned, some will argue that under the current regime, Venezuela's poor have seen improvements to their quality of life. Would you agree with that?

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

There is no doubt that the government of President Chávez has made some efforts to improve areas such as health. If you go back to the presentation, you will see that most demonstrations are linked to demands in areas such as education, health, and services. So it's obvious that people are not very happy with the results.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

There has been some question of foreign intervention in Venezuela, in particular by Cuba or the United States.

Do you think that is an important factor in the battle between the two blocks you spoke of earlier?

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

Again, as I said, it's not the area of my concern because I don't follow the situation very closely, but there are many statements from people who have expressed concerns about the presence of Cuban people in key areas in the country: army, intelligence, all the information about identification, IDs, and these kinds of things.

Also, they're in the area of the office that registers documents for properties, notarios y revistadores. And there's one more area I can't remember now. There is one particular organization, Control Ciudadano, who follow the situation very closely, and in fact for making public that information, they've also been subject to harassment during the last few weeks.

I have no information about direct interference from the U.S. government. There is of course some funding provided to NGOs by the National Endowment for Democracy, which is perceived by the government as a branch of the CIA or something like that, as I also stated here in the presentation I made.

So, yes, there is some support from this foundation in the U.S., but I think the problem goes beyond that. At any point, anyone who dares to make any criticism of the government will be seen as an ally, as you say, to the empire.

There is a new NGO that is being organized now, since January, in Washington, and it's being organized by Venezuelans who have lived there for a very long time. We had a meeting with them in March and they presented projects. The director of Provea raised the question and said, “I don't think you would be of any help to us because you're based in the U.S.” I said, “Listen, if Mother Teresa comes back from heaven and criticizes President Chávez, she will be seen as an ally to the empire. Whoever criticizes somehow is criminalized and disqualified anyway.”

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Madam.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston, you have 10 minutes for questions and answers.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witness for her presentation.

Your presentation is quite different from that of some of the witnesses we've heard here before, but I would like to carry on a little bit with a line that Mr. Dorion was talking about. Both the United States, via the CIA, and Cuba have a reputation for activities within that whole region. It goes back very many years.

In the area of difference in your testimony as opposed to others—and I'm not calling into question in any way the testimony you've given; it's just a comparator. In the area of the Constitution, we had witnesses at this committee talk about how the average citizen was so proud of their Constitution that many of them carried it with them, and that there was a dialogue on the streets, within the community; there was a sense of engagement in the population that in fact we would even envy in this country.

You mentioned health care. They also testified that for the poor people there was a substantial betterment in the area of education.

Again, I want to discuss a little bit what Mr. Dorion started with the TV stations. Evidence was given here that one particular TV station actually led the coup. The other evidence matched yours, though, in regard to the administration's closure of the other stations, which is precisely the evidence that you've given.

Commentary was given that one of the worst problems in the country wasn't the army and it wasn't the government, but it was the police themselves. They saw in the government that they weren't being active enough in controlling and perhaps educating the police, and that there were a lot of abuses there.

I, for one, am not overly surprised that in a country where a coup is attempted against the government, following that coup perhaps there's a hardening. Testimony does match that there's been a hardening of the resolve in the approach of the government.

You mentioned appointments, and I'm not so sure whether you were talking exclusively of the Supreme Court judges, but here in Canada we've had successive governments appoint to our Senate people who are aligned with them politically, including the current government. That's not seen as particularly bad, because if you have a philosophy of how you want to move your country forward to support it in that fashion.... But again, the separation of the court system is something that needs to be protected.

If you'd like to respond to any or all of that, feel free. Then perhaps we can go further.

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

I think that was one of the positive side effects of the current Constitution, which we've had since 1999. It's precisely that it opened a wide discussion within the country, and human rights was one of the key issues during that discussion. So that is a very positive action and effect of that discussion back in 1999.

In my view, the problem the government has is that they were the majority--not the government, but people sympathizing with Chávez probably were the majority in the national constitutional assembly. In my view, they signed a Constitution as if they were in the opposition, but one day they realized they were in power and they had to fulfill the Constitution, respect it, and apply it, and that is the problem they're facing now.

The issue of human rights, as I was saying at the beginning of the presentation, was a key one. I think that's why people feel proud of the Constitution, and that's why people are demanding the rights that the Constitution recognizes. That's why the level of demonstrations has increased seriously during the past few years. At the beginning it was very easy to say, “We're a new government and all the problems we have come from the ancien régime”, if you want to put it that way, La Cuarta República de Venezuela , as they call it.

People trusted the government, and said, “Well, let's wait for a while. It's not your fault. We have to trust you, and you'll do your best.” But after 11, or 10, or 9 years, people started to feel very uncomfortable and unhappy with the lack of results. That's why people now have the Constitution in their hands, and they still feel proud about it, but they're using it in a way the government doesn't like.

With regard to television channels leading the coup, there was a blackout, that is true; there was a blackout of information from the private media. All of them shared that responsibility. The four major television channels shared that responsibility. They don't recognize it, of course, but they're responsible for a blackout of information during those days.

I was personally a victim of that. I was trying to approach one radio station when a Chávez member of Parliament was arrested. I went to visit him, and I was not allowed to visit him in the political prison. I couldn't have my voice heard in that television station until 11 p.m., when a journalist who was a personal friend of mine said, “Okay, I will open the microphone”, but it was 11 p.m.

So there was a blackout. We cannot say that the private media are innocent. What I'm saying is that they are guilty. They have to go to trial. There's no way that you can solve this problem using administrative measures that have nothing to do with the grounds of the accusations.

With regard to the police, probably there is one point where we have some good news. The national police was created a couple of years ago. The person who has been appointed as executive secretary to design and monitor all the implementation of the process is a person who came from the human rights NGO movement. Her name is Soraya El Achkar. She's a very prominent human rights defender in Venezuela with high credibility, and I'm sure she's doing her best to make this happen with a lot of resistance from her boss, who is the Minister of the Interior.

Members of my team, Provea, members of all of the human rights organizations, are doing our best to make this happen. We're contributing every Wednesday to the education of these new policemen on human rights. That is the only window of direct and positive contact with the government we have, but it's a good one.

Sorry, it's the national police. That doesn't exclude the other police, so the problem remains.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I understand. They were put in place because of some of the problems with the other police forces.

I'm curious. We have your title and your organization. What was your background before taking on this work?

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

Before taking on this work I was a student. I've been working on this for 30 years. I studied sociology. I had the idea of taking post-graduate studies in criminology, but I never did it. I became interested in the prison conditions of political prisoners and that led me to human rights somehow.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's great.

In the area of human rights in this country today, compared to the previous administration, and compared to Colombia and Bolivia, where would you station the country in those relationships overall?

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

In comparing--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Comparing your previous administration's record on human rights to this record on human rights, and comparing this administration to the ones in Bolivia and Colombia.

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

My policy has always been not to make comparisons between countries. I compare my country against the Constitution. If I compare my country against the Constitution of our country, I think we have always had problems of human rights.

I've been working in this area for 30 years, as a founding member of Provea--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's why I asked the question.

[Ligia Bolivar Osuna]

--and I have been facing different governments since 1988. Provea was formally funded on October 1, 1988, and on October 29 we had the first massacre that I had to give attention to.

If we compare this government against the Constitution, I think things are worse than they were before--for different reasons. First, as I was saying, there was a trend to ensure that career judges were increased and that eventually all the positions would be covered by career judges. Now that trend has reverted to a point that is even worse than when we started the moratorium in 1988.

As I said, you can have human rights violations anywhere, but a key point, in my view, is that if you don't have an independent judiciary, then you don't have the means to correct human rights violations. In that respect the situation is becoming more difficult than it was before.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much, Mr. Marston.

The last two rounds went a few minutes over. I thought the answers were very good and it didn't seem appropriate to cut them off. But in order to allow a full round for our final round of questions, I'd like the permission of the committee to go a few minutes past 2 p.m.