Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 8th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Good afternoon.

There are a number of points I want to talk about.

One I'm curious about is that in China when we started to see the changes in that country, they had what they called the “iron rice bowl”, where the government supplied the food services for a lot of people. Was there a situation like that in your country prior to the changes in the Soviet Union?

Also, this is going to seem like quite a contrast, but in regard to the extrajudicial killings you're talking about, I'm curious beyond that as to whether the courts have been used against people for executions.

There's another question I'll ask you. Have you had or will you have the opportunity while in Canada to meet with our foreign minister here?

We'll try those and then see if we have more time.

[Jaroslav Romanchuk]

I'll answer the first question on the situation in Belarus. Belarus, at the end of the 1980s, was more prosperous than Poland, the Czech Republic, or Slovakia, because it was in the west of the Soviet Union, and the leadership wanted Belarus to look like the west, It was like eastern Germany and the western part of Germany. The contrast was huge, but the information monopoly created the illusion that we were very prosperous.

In 1994 the average salary was about $30. Those were very bad, rough times. That was the bottom. Then the economy began to grow. Lukashenko was in power. It was a coincidence, but many people attributed this kind of growth to Lukashenko policies.

Anatoly.

[Anatoly Liabedzka]

I have much experience with the judiciary in Belarus; I have been in prison more than 10 times. And I must say that in Belarus there is a building that has signs on it that read “Supreme Court” and “Constitutional Court”, but these are just on the exterior. There is no interior content. There is no independent judiciary.

That system exists. All the judges are appointed by Alexander Lukashenko. There are no exceptions. It is very developed and is what we call the “telephone right”, where a judge makes his decision when called by the administration without looking at the constitution and the legislation.

I can give you an example so that you'll understand me completely. There was a case that led to a young person being sent to jail for 15 days because, as it said in the decision, he yelled out anti-presidential slogans. This young man was deaf and incapable of speaking. He could not have yelled out anything. This was his personal tragedy. And they condemned him to prison. This is just an example of the judicial actions of Belarus.

We have a huge problem facing us. There will be changes. There will be changes in government in Belarus, and the judicial system we have today will be a huge issue for a new democratic Belarus, for a new European Belarus. Here, we need the assistance, experience, and expertise of Canada. It would be very relevant for us.

As for investigation of killings, murders, and the stealing away of people, this is something that the Parliamentary Assembly of the OSCE has discussed. It's a very relevant topic today, just before the presidential campaign.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You finished with talk about an investigation. Is there a number that you could put on the number of missing--I heard you say “taken away”--who have been found dead?

I'll go on to another question. That way, you can wrap up both questions.

I'm really interested in this Speak the Truth campaign. In your presentation, I've heard quite a bit about the propaganda on how glorious it is compared with what life is actually like. Here, we're used to dealing with the Internet. We have all kinds of media access in this country. How effective is it and how will you go about reaching the people to speak the truth?

[Anatoly Liabedzka]

Four specific examples of kidnapping and murder are as follows: Victor Gonchar, one of the heads of Parliament and the Supreme Soviet of the 14th Congress; Yuri Zakharenko, the former Minister of the Interior; Anatoly Krasovsky, a businessman who worked with the opposition; and Dmitry Zavadsky, an independent journalist.

These are four specific examples of kidnapping and murder with very good evidential documentation: the last names of people who kidnapped these people and murdered them. However, there has been no independent judicial review; therefore, the case is still open.

[Jaroslav Romanchuk]

As for a way to reach out to the people, we definitely use door-to-door campaigning, which is very effective. The only way to meet people is to deliver, to give them information about different issues.

Then there is the Internet, which is getting more and more popular. About 3.5 million people in Belarus use the Internet in their everyday lives, although they don't read political news. As well, we use different social networks to reach out to them and get them engaged.

Another important way is to get NGOs that have national networks involved, to get business associations, entrepreneurs, women, youth, and unions of Poles involved in these kinds of activities. In addition, we have satellite channels supported by the Polish government and called Belsat. One of the areas where the Canadian government can make a difference is to support Belsat as an international project that broadcasts for Belarus in the Belarusian language.

[Andrey Dmitriev]

Regarding the Internet, I would also like to add that right now a presidential decree that is being prepared is spearheaded at limiting the opportunity for people to have access to information on the Internet. Not in a single government institution or university today can you simply open a website for an opposition organization. They're all blocked. This equipment has been bought in China and it is an experiment that's being done.

I can give you an example of a discussion in the electro-communications ministry: are you going to be able to register your e-mail address in government institutions or not? Should it be for free? Should you have to pay for registering? Think about that. It's nuts. This is craziness that they're forcing upon us, where in order to open your e-mail you will have to go to a government body, pay a fee, and say that it is actually your e-mail. That's what our government understands and thinks should be done with Internet information.

[Vladimir Prokofyevich Neklyayev]

As for the Speak the Truth campaign, the phenomenon of it is that we had developed the technologies to spread our campaign, to spread the word, and in less than three months our recognition in our country has gone from 0% to 20% today. That's a huge achievement, if you know anything about Internet technologies. So we developed our technologies, but people are so hungry for the truth, you know, and they can finally hear words that have real meaning and substance, which means that people are coming...

We have to speak the truth in our country. We're being oppressed. You can't hold a meeting without the special services there. The special police come. In Mazyr, they said we brought in drugs and that people came in to smoke up rather than listen to a meeting. I'm telling you that society is tired to death of the lies and society is ready to help us.

Why are we being repressed? Because there's not a single political party in the past times...though there are a number of other parties and powers. This repression occurs because the lies in our country are the ideology of the state. Lukashenko is looking for a government ideology. Well, he found one: it's called lies. That is why we are looking for the truth. His truth is a lie.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much. That ends that round of questions.

In order to give us time to have a round of questions from the Conservative members, I'm going to see the clock as being seven minutes before the hour, as I did this morning.

Mr. Hiebert, please begin.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing my time with my colleague.

A number of you have referenced the upcoming election. When is that election going to occur?

[Jaroslav Romanchuk]

We don't know the date because Alexander Lukashenko decides on the date himself. The threshold is February 9. We have inside information that the date will be some time in December of this year.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Okay. Now, has there been any request made to any international body to monitor the election results? Can you confirm that?

[Jaroslav Romanchuk]

We made a request to ODIHR to provide long-term observation, but they need a formal invitation from Belarusian authorities. They are waiting for the authorities to invite it in for long-term observation and the invitation cannot come before the date is set.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I see.

I have two other questions before I pass this on to my colleague. One has to do with the extent of government control over the media. Is it entirely state controlled?

Second, one of you mentioned the danger to the world that Belarus presents, specifically because of deals with Syria and Iran. This committee has spent a great deal of time studying Iran and the threat that it is. I wonder if somebody could elaborate on that.

[Jaroslav Romanchuk]

All media are definitely state-controlled, state-owned, and even if the authorities allow some private papers to exist, they put a lot of pressure on journalists. Recently, four lady journalists were investigated and essentially interrogated by the KGB for their coverage of corruption deals, but that was an excuse. The real reason was that they belong to the opposition media and they are quite authoritative.

As for Iran, as an economist I always wonder why some economic and investment projects exist. We have the assembly line of the Iranian car, Samand, that makes 250 cars a year, with a plan to make 30,000. There was an ongoing line of communication between Iran and Belarus; there was an Iranian bank and many projects inside Belarus.

Belarus is used as the country that may be an intermediary between Russia and Iran on the technologies that we all suspect to be somehow involved in producing nuclear weapons. Of course, we don't have evidence of that, but we have many rumours inside Belarus, and talking to people gives us evidence of something that is behind the official smokescreen for these economic relations. For example, I've heard of a deal that is being discussed for an oil swap among Iran, Russia, and Belarus.

If you do not have transparency of weapon flows and if you don't have transparency in finance flows, you definitely suspect these kinds of arrangements to be not just about economic operations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for coming here and taking the courageous stance that you are.

You've mentioned a cultural genocide. You've mentioned the lack of freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and freedom of assembly, except, of course, if Lukashenko decides you can exercise one of those freedoms. There is no independent judiciary. Arrests are happening at random. You have to now register even for access to e-mail and Internet.

Is there any source at all...? You mentioned some journalists who were... Of course, the Russian KGB, as you've also mentioned, is involved in Belarus. What about international journalists? Are they able to get the word out? Is there any kind of freedom there or does Lukashenko treat them with the same kind of irreverence and impunity?

[Anatoly Liabedzka]

As for the international presence in the area of information, there are certain opportunities that exist for the Russian Federation. As in Belarus, there are about five or six channels, but because of the difficulty with the Kremlin in recent times, the Belarus authorities are banning certain Russian programs. As for the rest, then, it is all very rigidly controlled. Belsat, a television channel, as my colleagues mentioned, has tried to receive its official accreditation to no avail. It is now working illegally and could very likely be criminally prosecuted.

In the 2006 presidential campaign, there were 1,000 people in prison at the same time that I was. Of them, there were a number of international journalists, some from Canada. One was my neighbour in my cell.

We are deeply interested in having Canadian journalists come to Belarus. It's possible that they could monitor the situation and publish the situation here. It's so important. It's extremely important for information on Belarus to enter into the Canadian media. That way, it would be far more effective for Canadian politicians and officials to affect the situation.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I just want to conclude with the fact that I have the Belarus country profile from the BBC in front of me, which says, in case anybody doubts the validity of our witnesses and their courage, that President Lukashenko is “Europe's last dictator”.

I just want to say to our witnesses--and I am certain that at this time I can speak for my colleagues--that the help you have asked for and your specific recommendations will certainly be strongly considered and followed up on after this.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much.

We are actually well past the concluding time we set, so I want to take the opportunity to thank our witnesses for coming here and to thank our committee members for having agreed to two meetings today to accommodate both sets of witnesses we've had. I thank you very much.

We are adjourned.