Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 10th, 2010

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

The connection with Iran is one that is, of course, very frightening, not only to the international community but also to the Jewish community in Venezuela. The timing of the attacks, many have suggested, were to coincide with, I believe, the first official meeting between Chávez and Ahmadinejad.

Whether the rumours in the community are true or not, I don't know. I simply want to present the fear that exists in the community. More than one person, more than one leader of the community, respected individuals who aren't the kind to jump at hearsay, say that what frightens them the most is that one flight a week from Caracas to Tehran. That's what frightens them--because you can't get a seat on that flight. We have no idea who's travelling, we have no idea why they're going; we just know that there's some type of partnership.

The belief is that Chávez is trying to balance two very delicate political situations: one is his absolute desire to please Iran and, hence, there's suspicion that many of the attacks on the Jewish community have been government-sponsored and government-encouraged in order to show Iran that he does have control over the Jewish community; and the other is a simple desire to be recognized as a messianic figure, a Castro-like figure, within his immediate international circles and, of course, in the world as well.

That's basically been the balance. There are veiled threats, yet the message is clear. He can defend himself against any outright accusation that he said something threatening or genocide-inciting about the Jewish community. At the same time, the message is very clear and loudly heard by the community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Unfortunately, that uses up all of our time for that set of questions.

Alors, Monsieur Dorion.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

First off, thank you for being here, Mr. Scheier. Of course, we have a duty to fight anti-Semitism, and being part of the fight against anti-Semitism across Canada is certainly an important role for this subcommittee.

Still, there are a few things I would ask you to clarify. You said that anti-Semitism was the official policy.

anti-Semitism is the official policy

of the Chavez government in Venezuela.

Do you acknowledge that someone can be very opposed to Israeli government policy without necessarily being anti-Semitic? That is my first question.

Second, it would seem that not everyone in the Chavez regime is anti-Semitic. On the site of the station Radio Mundial, there is a statement by the president of the Venezuelan-Israelite association, Elias Farache—you may know him—in which he thanks the president of the republic and the Venezuelan government for taking the investigation into the synagogue attack you mentioned seriously.

Elias Farache said things such as—and I am translating from Spanish: The Venezuelan Jewish community and the congregation of the Israelite association of Venezuela and Mariperez, in particular, want to express their satisfaction with the investigation undertaken by the scientific, penal and criminal investigative body in the case involving the theft and desecration of the Tiferet synagogue, regardless of the motive, in which individuals desecrated a religious building by writing hate-filled messages. We want to thank the President of the Republic, Hugo Chavez, Chancellor Nicolas Maduro, Minister Jesse Chacon, and so forth.

So apparently there are people in the Jewish community who do not share the opinion of others in that same community regarding the actions of the Venezuelan government.

I would like you to explain that for us. I would think that you took an interest in the dissenting opinions within the community when you were studying the situation, and I would like to hear your comments on that.

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

Thank you for those wonderful questions.

I certainly am open to the suggestion that anti-Israel sentiments are not by definition anti-Semitic, or that they could potentially not be anti-Semitic. However, the proof is in the pudding. The Jewish community in Venezuela was attacked and has not received reassurance from the government that these attacks were isolated attacks by groups that the government has publicly denounced. The government has not reached out a friendly hand to the community in a way that would reassure the Jewish community that the government was not behind these attacks.

A full year and a half following the attacks, the Jewish community still believes that the government was behind these attacks, and the Jewish community still believes that the Government of Venezuela is very unwelcoming and very threatening to its very survival. For that reason, I would suggest that Chávez's anti-Israel sentiments go much deeper than simply a political opinion of activities in the Middle East. It goes directly to the heart of the matter, which is how a Jewish community and a community that openly supports Israel can feel comfortable and free to exist in an open way within Venezuelan society.

In terms of disagreements within the community as to the results of investigations and the results of the judicial process that followed the attacks, certainly there are voices—and I am not familiar with these voices—that are satisfied, but the leadership of the Jewish community, which I have been in touch with and have spoken to, including the chief rabbi and many other leaders, believe they have not been reassured that due process has been done in convicting and sentencing those who perpetrated these horrific attacks on a Jewish communal institution. The matter is still open to them.

One thing that we've been requesting from the international community for quite a while is an independent investigation. If an independent investigation comes back and says that the Venezuelan government did everything in its power to find out who committed these atrocities, and we are satisfied with the results, then that's one thing. But no independent investigation has happened, no international committee has looked into it and, certainly, those living in Venezuela and those connected to the community in same way are not reassured that the outcome of that incident was satisfactory for the purposes of the security of the Jewish community in Venezuela.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

There is a minute and a half left.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Is it over? No, fine.

Am I to understand that you would like an international investigation into this incident?

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

Yes, absolutely.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Good afternoon.

It's really difficult to know just where to start. I want to be very clear on one thing, though: the desecration and the bombings are beyond reprehensible. Any civilized country would and should condemn such things.

You used the word “terrorists”, and I can understand the kind of fear that would come following.... With the Jewish people's history, this kind of situation would instill fear and terror. Perhaps when people haven't lived that existence in the past, they would simply call them hoodlums. Tragically, you can still find the words “Christ killers” in far too many countries of this world. That was ingrained over centuries, and it is going to take centuries to remove--in my opinion, anyway.

Are you familiar with David Bittan, the vice-president of the Confederation of Israelite Associations of Venezuela? Okay. When we were preparing for your visit, we did a little bit of research.

I'll just read what I have here: according to a prominent Venezuelan Jewish organization, the Confederation of Israelite Associations of Venezuela, the denunciation of Chávez by American-based organizations, such as the ADL or the Simon Wiesenthal Center, have been counterproductive, because at the time—this is 2009, following the incidents--the Venezuelan government was reaching out to the Jewish community in Caracas; last year, Mr. Bittan, the vice-president, said that the Venezuelan government has been addressing the Jewish community’s complaints, while noting that the number of anti-Semitic articles in the Venezuelan media had “dropped by 60%”.

Well, one is too many. There's no dispute there.

We've had witnesses before this committee, for instance, talking about the problems with the police in the country, that when Chávez first came in, one of the things he undertook was retraining of police, and that the police themselves were very much an outlaw band.

I agree with you that an international investigation, if that's possible, may be warranted in this case, because if there is systemic racism in the Government of Venezuela, as you have said yourself, they have done a good job of actually hiding that.

If these were simply hoodlums out for robbery, as the government alleges at the time, that is something that needs to be very clearly proven. Again, if there is systemic racism....

Personally, from the testimony we've had as a committee here, from a number of people who spoke highly of the Constitution, the changes that were made, the fact that when they had the referendum, even though the referendum lost by a very close margin, Mr. Chávez was abiding by it, but there are contrary indications of positive things happening there along with these stories—and I am not doubting them; I don't want to give you that impression.

There was testimony here also that Venezuela is surrounded by American bases and it feels very much under threat. It wasn't stated, but it was alluded to as possibly the reason that he has shifted his view to Iran and an alliance of whatever nature, and to Cuba, because of that fear of being overthrown.

We have a very complex situation where it is understandable that the outcome of people's feelings may well be that it's anti-Semitism.

You could find people in this country who, when Gaza was invaded—and I believe the numbers were in the area of 1,500 civilians who lost their lives during that—or the more recent events where Israel decided to board ships in international waters, which I think is improper—I can understand their motivation but not what took place—you can see in places where people would take a position in opposition to that, but that doesn't make them anti-Semitic. I would be the first to question some of that. I see myself as a friend of the Jewish community; sometimes your friends have to ask you the tough questions.

How do we separate from anti-Semitism the genuine concern about the actions of Israel in the last number of years?

I'll leave some of those thoughts with you. Maybe you'd like to respond.

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

Thank you for those thoughtful remarks. I'll just make a few comments.

It's important to remember that the Venezuelan media is not the Canadian media. When we say a 60% decrease, the media is government-controlled, which means that there's still a certain percentage of government-sponsored messages getting out.

I will as well submit for evidence, just as a sample, the cover of a newspaper published on the day that I visited last year. It's a newspaper that's published by PDVSA, the government-owned oil company. It's a statement about Israel. Yet, for a Holocaust survivor community to see the words nueva administración, or new administration, concerning the political situation in Gaza, using Holocaust imagery, sponsored by the government--this is not part of the free press--is something that makes the community quite fearful. I'll leave this to circulate as well.

In terms of the motivation of those who committed the atrocities and terrorized the community by vandalizing the synagogue on a Sabbath morning, the Jewish community throughout has been puzzled by what other motivation could there be for these constant acts of fearmongering and terrorizing acts on their community? What is there worth stealing in a synagogue on a Saturday morning? There are no deposits of wealth there. They didn't want the Torah scrolls. They didn't want the ritual objects. They wrote on the walls. They made a mess of the offices. They left the ritual objects in need of repair strewn all over the floor.

Why would the government raid? What are they searching for in 2004, 2007? What's the point of all this? We don't know. Searching for a possible alternative, certainly everyone wants to find another alternative as to why someone other than the Government of Venezuela would be interested in sending this message to the Jewish community. None has emerged. So yes, we would all like that.

Another thing that has been mentioned before, but another area of concern of course, is, of course, as mentioned, the difficult dynamics with America, with the United States, perhaps related to certain issues pertaining particularly to that region. But if your friend is not America, then who is your friend? It doesn't have to be Iran. That's what concerns...and as well should concern the international community, that we have an ally, as it were, in Venezuela, who is cozying up to one of the most dangerous regimes that our world has seen in the last half century. That should frighten us all.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You talked about the government raids. So these were army troops that came in, or were they police? How were they identified as being government?

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

The raids were simply well-coordinated militaristic raids.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That was exactly my point. You've got a situation with police forces that can potentially function very much like the military. I'm not personally aware of the level of training they would have in Venezuela, so that may be a stretch, but to.... It's just very troubling, there is no doubt of it.

You made reference to physical acts--the office raided, the desecrations. Have we had physical attacks on people, such as injuries or deaths?

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

Connected to these incidents, there have been no physical attacks. The attacks have been early in the morning when no one was present. There have been physical incidents that most likely relate more to the lawlessness of Venezuela, in particular for those who might have visited Caracas, along the dangerous route from the airport to the city. There have been a number of incidents, including those related to the leadership of the community, where on their way back from the airport they've been dragged out of the car and beaten up and theft has occurred.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's exactly the point. The thuggery in Venezuela is known worldwide. Also in that part of the world, without pointing at Venezuela in particular, there are many countries in South America with death squads, with situations where people simply disappear. If you wanted to instill terror and if you were the government that wanted to instill terror, that's not beyond what some people might do. In terms of the fact that those things aren't happening, I'm leaning towards an out-of-control police force or thuggery, in my own view of what I think is occurring there. The underlying reasons, the anti-Semitic reasons, are still there, and I'm not doubting that, but that's why I was asking that line of questioning.

I'm not trying to whitewash Mr. Chávez. He's a character who seems to be adrift compared to what we thought we had when he first was elected, and testimony here leads us that way. The people, though, who have spoken to us here about their Constitution again were very concerned about the fact that they had made, as they saw it, tremendous strides in about a 10-year period with education and health care, and are nervous, I think, about what's happening with Mr. Chávez and whether things are starting to slip. It's a tough nut to crack.

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

I want to respond as well and to go back to a previous point. You mentioned that there are those in the community who said things are progressing, things are going in the right direction. This is the message that I received from the community leadership: speak up and continue to speak up, because there are things that you can say that we cannot.

I'm happy to say that on the record, that this has been requested.

As far as Chávez's motives are concerned, his relationship with Iran, and his quoting, verbatim, vandalism written on the synagogue walls--these are things that a government or a leader who is concerned about a minority community and a perception that the minority community has about its own place in that country would naturally distance himself from, not embrace.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

I let that one go on a bit longer than we normally do. It was actually just shy of 12 minutes. Although we planned for eight-minute rounds, I thought we were just getting to the nub of things towards the end.

Who will begin; is it Mr. Sweet or Mr. Hiebert?

Mr. Hiebert, please.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for being here. I really appreciate your testimony.

Let me just comment first by saying that the evidence you've presented is pretty clear. When more than half of the Jewish population flees a nation, it has to be for some good reason. I think that speaks loudly. The decline from 24,000 to 10,000 in the school population is clearly indicative of a situation where people feel that they are no longer safe.

You made reference briefly to that flight that occurs every week from Caracas to Tehran, and you made a comment that no seats are available on the flight. It drew to my attention some other issues that we've been learning about.

I'm holding in my hand a news report from last week that cites that Venezuela has two uranium mines but not the capacity to enrich uranium, but Iran has. It comments about how, in 2006, in a meeting between Ahmadinejad and Chávez in Caracas, the two leaders signed contracts, including one for Iran to build an ammunition manufacturing plant in Venezuela. There has been some speculation as to the purpose of those weekly flights but no hard evidence.

Do you have any information that might relate to the purpose for the flights and the fact that no seats are available? What might be going on there?

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

I have no insider information on what's happening. Certainly that's what is so scary for the Jewish community, that nobody quite knows what is happening. But no, I don't have any hard evidence on what's happening.

In the level of cooperation between Iran and Venezuela, the fact that we don't know is something that should scare us all.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

The other thing I want to draw to your attention and ask you for your comment on is another report from last week. This is an AP, Associated Press, story that comments about how a government official recently blocked six anti-Chávez hopefuls from the September ballot. It notes that based solely on suspicion, with no need for hard evidence, are they allowed to prevent a candidate from seeking public office.

Do you have any comments on the state of a viable opposition in the country that would provide Venezuelans a clear choice in the September election? What's the state of the opposition?

[Rabbi Adam Scheier]

As Chávez himself asserted this past week, it's the “cursed Israelis” who are sponsoring his opposition in his own country.

I don't live in Venezuela, and I can't speak to the status of the opposition party, other than the fact that it's a country in which the media outlets have been taken over by the government. It's a country where the notion of free press and free speech doesn't exist as we would like it to exist with any of our allies. Any viable opposition certainly wouldn't have any staying power.

There is a sense in the country that Chávez enjoys a very small percentage of the national support, yet manages to get himself elected time and time again. No one I spoke to, from airport personnel to policemen to other religious leaders in the community, supports Chávez. Who is voting for him? How does he manage to stay elected and remain in power? I don't know. But choking the media outlets and controlling the dialogue, both internally in Venezuela and outward, is likely the means by which he does that.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'll share the balance of my time with my colleague.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

All right.

You have four minutes, Mr. Sweet.