Evidence of meeting #28 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Earlier in your testimony you both talked about how western countries have used economic relationships with China to promote human rights. Later you mentioned that businesses absolutely need the respect for the rule of law.
I'm wondering to what degree you think the Chinese government recognizes that for the economic reforms that have occurred, and for the future growth of their economy to occur, that will require relationships with companies outside of China, and the trust element that's essential to those relationships is in fact the rule of law.
Do you think the Government of China recognizes how it needs to have a cleanly uncorrupted system of the rule of law established deeply within its country so that other corporations from other nations can develop the relationships that they are looking for, going forward?
Executive Director, Freedom Now
I'll comment briefly.
I certainly hope it does, and I think at some point it'll have to recognize that. At the moment, unfortunately, so many businesses are not making that a requirement, or not forcing it upon the Chinese system. They're happily going in and conducting business inside China without that being any sort of prerequisite. But certainly if business is to continue, I think at some point the Chinese government is going to have to start making some reform. Otherwise I think it's just going to be more and more problematic, and businesses are eventually going to become more deterred.
With that, I couldn't possible divine the contents of the minds of the Chinese government. I think Dr. Yang might be better able to answer that.
Founder and President, Initiatives for China
Thank you, Maran.
Yes, I think, based on my personal experience communicating with friends inside the government, that even the top leaders recognize the importance of the rule of law for business itself, if not for other things. The problem is, as I said, with the nature of the system and also the interest groups.
Earlier today I said that two Chinas exist in China. One China is called China Inc., formed gradually over the past 20 years after the Tiananmen Square massacre. This China Inc. formed because the Chinese government realized they had to incorporate the intellectuals and the capitalists, otherwise they would not survive. Then, for reasons of survival, they formed a very strong interest group in China.
They used a few strategies to survive. First was economic growth, that without growth the legitimacy would be lost overnight. Second was to keep stability and increase the police force to build up the stability-preserving system, which takes the general public as enemies. Third was nationalistic sentiment, the so-called patriotic education. And fourth, corruption became one of the strategies for the Chinese government to survive. Corruption gives the intellectuals, the elites—economic elites, intellectual elites, political elites--at each level, local officials, the opportunity to corrupt. Whatever they want to do, that's all right, except for anything that challenges the power of the central government. They actually use it as an exchange for loyalty. Over time, this will form, and has already formed, a very strong interest group that even the top leader cannot break.
So they recognize the importance of the rule of law, not only for other things but for economic growth. They need the rule of law, but they are in a position where they would not be able to break the interest group. That is why Premier Wen Jiabao came out to say what he said. What he said does not indicate that he wants to do something. Instead, it indicates that he's just lost hope in the system. He wants to say it, he wants to cry out for that, before he retires.
To solve this problem, we cannot work only with the government; we also have to look at the civil society, the people. We have to engage directly with the people inside China, and we have to help them develop and build up the power, the democratic forces. Without that, I don't think the interest circle, which I've just described to you, will be broken by itself.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you very much.
That completes the questioning, and unfortunately we're out of time. In fact, we're a little over time.
I'll take this opportunity to thank both of our witnesses, Dr. Yang and Ms. Turner. We're very grateful that you were able to take the time on short notice to bring us up to speed on what I think we would agree with you is arguably the most important human rights situation in the world today. So I would express our gratitude to you. Thank you very much.
Committee members, before I adjourn, I want to alert you to the fact that we are going to be having a change of witnesses and hearing topics for next Tuesday due to an unanticipated scheduling problem that has arisen.
On Thursday we're going to see if we can meet a half hour earlier--the clerk will be contacting your offices--in order to take care of committee business. Hopefully that will work. If it doesn't work, we'll have to find an alternative arrangement, perhaps an additional meeting. I know nobody wants that. So we'll be taking care of that outside of business hours. But the goal will be to find a time to deal with a couple of the things--scheduling issues and financial issues in terms of getting some approvals taken care of. I'll leave it there.
Thank you very much. We are adjourned.