Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 4th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I call the meeting to order.

Today, November 4, 2010, we are holding the 30th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are now studying the treatment of sexual minorities in Uganda.

We have two witnesses here today who are from the Pride Uganda Alliance International. As per a previous agreement, for which there was consent from all committee members, the identities of these witnesses are not being revealed even though this is a meeting held in public. I would just ask all members to keep that in mind.

We do, however, want to stress that everybody here takes this issue very seriously and we are particularly anxious to hear the testimony of these witnesses.

For the benefit of the witnesses, we normally give about 10 minutes, more or less—we're not really firm on that—for your initial testimony and after that is done we will then go to questions from the various members of the subcommittee. Perhaps I could ask our two witnesses to divide the time between yourselves and to begin.

[Witness 1]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee.

I want to thank you for the privilege and honour in your agreeing to undertake a study on human rights in Uganda for GLBT after my presenting to you the concerns of Pride Uganda Alliance International, in particular on the case of group resettlement and the application of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, also known as the IRPA. The act brings a powerful compassion as a strong element of the Canadian national character, as brilliantly articulated in part 2 of the IRPA. This is what inspires me.

Pride Uganda is concerned about Uganda's homophobic legislation, which increases violence, misrepresentation, and false accusations, and lessens power to professionals who can assist with the GLBT community. Recently a Ugandan newspaper published a story featuring a list of the nation's top gays and lesbians--for hanging, as reported by the Washington Post, the BBC, Fox News, and other news outlets.

This week on Monday, CNN reported that of the governments that have donated aid to Uganda and human rights groups that have applied massive pressure since the bill was proposed a year ago, most believed that the bill had been shelved. Not so, said Bahati, adding that every single day of his life he is still pushing for the bill to pass.

Pride Uganda is a community-based support group established with the 519 Church Street Community Centre, with approximately 70 members in good standing. It supports mostly individuals from Uganda and east Africa, but now also includes members from other communities.

The challenges of ensuring group resettlement and the right to refugee status are not new. The most recent debate has focused on the role of the Balanced Refugee Reform Act and engaged Canadians. The private sponsorship being advocated by the government through the act, I realized, would not work for a group resettlement, except for individuals in groups of five or ten.

Every individual who has contacted Pride Uganda Alliance International, even if it was in the knowledge that Pride Uganda may be incapable of fulfilling flight from harm for these GLBT persons, is desperate and traumatized. I was challenged to do something even though Pride Uganda is without financial means. I wanted established organizations to do our work, but it was not happening as quickly as we would have wanted, or there was nothing at all. I found that I had to embark on an unknown quest, least expecting positive results--but I did it anyway to prove the impossible right and pessimism wrong.

From the outset, my research findings showed that information on Africa is often absent in discussions about GLBT asylum issues, and there is very little from Canadian sources to provide a comprehensive and balanced analysis of obviously complex issues. I had to look at other sources to concretize my submission to you so that the urgency for group resettlement for GLBT persons in Uganda could be expedited.

I also draw reference from the “UNHCR Guidance Note on Refugee Claims Relating to Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity” as an important foundation for enhancing protection for those facing persecution or threats based on sexual orientation or gender identity.

The International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission and asylum.org have reported the intensification of GLBT persecutions as credible sources for information. Major media outlets have accordingly reported GLBT persecutions in Uganda and elsewhere.

I urge Canada to offer group resettlement without delay to GLBT individuals from Uganda that may include nationals from other African countries. There is an urgent need for a humanitarian response to violations of human rights.

I have been lobbying the government in my campaign for group resettlement of persecuted GLBT persons from Uganda as a motion introduced by New Democrat Bill Siksay, passed unanimously on March 24, 2010, in the House of Commons and calling on the Government of Canada to continue speaking out against Uganda's anti-homosexual bill.

It also led me to contact more parliamentarians--my local MP, Peter Braid, and MP Bill Siksay--and brought MPs of all parties to seek further support. I thank Mr. Peter Braid and his office and Mr. Bill Siksay and his office for their support.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has expressed Canada's deep concern and strong opposition to the bill. Even U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton acknowledged at GLBT pride month that in some places, violence against the GLBT communities is permitted by law and inflamed by public calls to violence. In others, it persists insidiously behind closed doors.

Most importantly, I am concerned with visa issuance, refugee criteria eligibility, and whether government-assisted refugee sponsorship will be granted under the resettlement assistance program.

In addition, regulation 150 of the IRPA requires that a permanent residence visa application for resettlement must be accompanied by a referral from a referral organization, an institution of a government, or an undertaking for private sponsorship. The ultimate goal is to find a durable solution, which is group resettlement.

When it comes to persecuted GLBT persons, there are internally displaced persons, also known as IDPs, who have to move in hiding from one place to another.

I have received in total 201 pleas for assistance for safe passage to Canada. Most claimants have provided initial statements, upon my request through general inquiry, why they felt they needed my assistance. Following guidelines from the LGBT/HIV Asylum Manual prepared by Immigration Equality in the U.S.A., as set out in their sections 17 and 18, for a statement that necessitates sexual minorities to provide an account of their persecution, 149 replied in spite of communication difficulties and wars. I have not heard from the remaining 51. One was able to make it to Sweden.

I have no guarantee that I shall be able to reach the 149 who are still in contact. It is a humanitarian mission I would like to accomplish for group resettlement to serve GLBT persons. I seek assurance that Canada will intervene and execute its urgent protection program to respond to 200 emergency referrals by Pride Uganda.

I am compiling dossiers on each and every GLBT person I have identified. There remains a meeting with GLBT persons in neighbouring Kenya to prepare their permanent resident applications for those individuals who do not have access to computer facilities. While visa officers would normally interview applicants on a case-by-case basis to meet the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the GLBT group is with a uniform refugee claim.

Clearly, group resettlement is more suitable for GLBT people. It is much faster since it allows Pride Uganda and Canada to quickly identify a large number of prima facie refugees fleeing persecution with similar conditions, because they are all members of a specific group. Canada did use this consideration with Karen and Bhutanese refugees. Canada has the urgent protection program to respond to emergency referrals by Pride Uganda even though we are not that prominent an NGO. It is why I appeal to the government and various MPs to seek their support for group resettlement.

Designating GLBT as refugees for urgent protection, who can articulate a serious protection concern because of their sexual orientation or gender identity, would make them eligible for expedited admission or direct processing under Canadian refugee admission. Most eligible refugees who seek Canadian resettlement are supposed to seek eligibility as a Geneva Convention refugee. However, the committee should be able to recognize that IDPs are forced to flee their home, but unlike other refugees remain in their country's borders. Once GLBT persons from Uganda can cross international borders, they would be defined as refugees, especially if Canada's High Commission based in Kenya were to process permanent resident visa applications for resettlement.

To sum up, U.S. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York, a member of the Senate foreign relations committee, wrote to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, urging her this: “Where safe conditions are not possible, the U.S. and the UN must work with refugee and human rights groups to expedite refugees' flight to safety.” And in a letter by Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon, he adduced that Canada's integral foreign policy promotes and protects human rights.

In the circumstances, how prepared is the committee to support GLBT asylum seekers' flight to safety to Canada from Uganda? When is humanitarian intervention appropriate for Canada to take action for the purpose of protecting GLBT persons from catastrophe, persecution, and crimes against humanity? Refugees who have fled persecution on the basis of their sexuality are among the most vulnerable, as persecution often follows them across borders. For some, resettlement is the only lifesaving solution.

My request to the committee is that you make recommendations to the minister for group resettlement for GLBT persons in Uganda.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Does our other witness wish to comment? No? All right.

In that case, we will go to questions. We're starting a bit earlier than we normally do, at 20 past. We have 40 minutes. This gives us time for two five-minute rounds, as long as we police ourselves carefully.

We'll begin then with Mr. Silva from the Liberals.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses for being here, for making a very compelling argument, not just about what is taking place in Uganda. I think all of us would agree that we're appalled by some of the legislation they're bringing forward and also the punitive legislation that is in place against gays and lesbians.

It is unfortunate that in this century there are still so many countries around the world where just being yourself, being gay and being lesbian, means you are also designated a criminal and could be subject to punishment under their various legal codes.

I think what was important about your presentation—and I want us to maybe have a further discussion about this—is that you brought home to Canada that it is not just about what is taking place in Uganda; it is about what Canada and the Canadian government can do to assist those who are fleeing persecution for being gay.

One of the things that maybe we as a committee could be doing as well is seeing if we can advocate for you with the IRB and also with the Minister of Citizenship to make sure that those who are fleeing are given a full, proper hearing, but also are given due consideration given the fact that the situation in Uganda is quite dire for gays and lesbians.

I know that Minister Kenney has also been working very closely with the gays and lesbians fleeing Iran and going through Turkey, especially the ones who have been designated as refugees who have been given passage to come to Canada, and we're very pleased with that.

I think this situation is just as bad, if not worse. The federal government and all of us need to do whatever we can to assist in bringing to Canada those who are fleeing persecution and have them recognized as legitimate refugees.

I'm wondering if you can briefly talk about two things. One, are there any organizations, any partners, we can work with in Uganda that can maybe facilitate us in helping us process the refugees to come to Canada? And two, have you been in discussions with other organizations, such as the one I mentioned that deals with bringing to Canada Iranians who are fleeing persecution?

[Witness 1]

Thank you, sir.

Most organizations in Uganda are.... Some of them I'm in contact with, but they were not giving me a clear picture of what they wanted to be done. What made me contact government, the committee, and Parliament was that I was receiving many requests from individuals. At first when these individuals contacted me, it started with five. Then it was ten, and numbers increased: 20, 30, 50, and on.

At the time, I was telling individuals that we were unable to help them that way because we did not have the money. We were just a social group in Canada, and we didn't know how we could help.

Nonetheless, even when they knew that we were incapable of helping them, the requests kept on coming in. I was challenged: what could we do about this? I did approach certain organizations here in Canada who I thought would be of assistance. Unfortunately, I didn't get responses from them. Amnesty International did get back to me and told me that they cannot request any government to expedite bringing refugees from anywhere. They can only ask a government to facilitate for refugees who are already here, to give them a fair hearing and due process.

So when I realized that I was not getting the answers I really needed, because these were individuals who were contacting me and the number had increased to 100, I started exploring avenues of how I could help these individuals. These individuals were like me. They weren't like activists who everybody was trying to advocate for. So my campaign has always been how we can help these individuals come here, and that was the difficult situation.

Right now, yes, there are many gay and lesbian individuals in Uganda, but at the moment I'm considering those who've contacted me because they're depressed, they're stressed, they're traumatized, that sort of situation. I'm sure many of them are not even contacting me because they don't know who can help them. Recently I saw in an article in the newspaper that they're asking the U.S. people to petition the State Department to issue visas to these 100 individuals. We don't know what is going to come out of that.

Right now, I'm stumped. All I can do is request that you, the committee, make a request on our behalf to the government to expedite these admissions. And I'm looking at these 200 individuals. While I'm not even certain that I'll reach all the 200 individuals--I'm not certain about that--all I can say is that if we can bring 150, brilliant. At least we'll have done a good cause at the time.

In answer to the Iranian question, I have not had any contact with anyone who's done anything for the Iranian gays and lesbians. No, I've not had any contact with them, and I can't comment on that.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Maybe after the meeting I'll be able to help you with those contacts.

[Witness 1]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Unfortunately, we're working on shorter timeframes than we are normally, because we're doing two rounds of questions.

So we'll now go to Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, madam and sir. Thank you for sharing this evidence with us, which is very disturbing for the individuals, for the persons.

I would like to understand how one can manage to table such a bill. I don't share those values, but I'm trying to understand the culture or traditions that lead a member of the government to promote that kind of bill. I suppose the entire African community and the African Union must have put pressure on the government by denouncing what seems to me to be an incredibly cruel bill.

[Witness 1]

Thank you, Madame.

There is no easy answer to your question, actually. There are many theories as to how that came about. It would be like writing a thesis to answer that question and give you the various answers.

The trouble is that recently--it was even reported on CNN--this MP, he himself, said that he would do everything to push this bill through. As I said in my speaking notes, most governments that have donated aid to Uganda and human rights groups that have applied massive pressure since the bill was proposed a year ago believed the bill had been shelved. We all thought so. Then all of a sudden there was the publishing of the names of 100 individuals in the newspapers, the reprisals, the people in hiding.

The government itself is not even putting any measures.... They will say to the western governments that they're doing everything to protect these individuals. But on the ground, nothing is happening. People are taking the law in their own hands.

You can blame it on being traditional. You can blame it on religious preachings from the U.S. trying to say that, oh, Africa will be an example to the rest of the world, that they do not agree with gay and lesbian issues.

It's a difficult question to answer, honestly. What is troubling is that we don't know what is going to happen, really. The fact remains that if people are being persecuted even now, and the government is not putting in any measures to protect these individuals.... Maybe they are barbaric, at best.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have another question. In the brief you sent us, you say that this bill also has a repressive effect, and I quote: "[...] it inhibits [...] the already positive work of health professionals, HIV workers and such [...] regardless of sexual orientation [...]" of the people and that it stigmatizes their activities.

Could you tell me why or how it will inhibit the work of those organizations in the field?

[Witness 1]

Because of what the bill itself says, anyone who does not report a gay or lesbian individual knows that they themselves would be in danger. For example, if a mother knows that her son is gay and she doesn't report that individual, she herself will be imprisoned. If a social worker, a nurse, or a teacher knows that her students, her patients, are gay or lesbian, and they don't report them to the authorities, they themselves are in danger. They are answerable to the law as to why they didn't do that. In other words, they themselves will be persecuted.

Now, because people do not want to be incriminated and do not want to be involved with gays and lesbians, they would rather do away with them. They don't want to be in danger themselves. Obviously in the case of health professionals, the issue of HIV/AIDS campaigns will not include gays and lesbians because they themselves will be looked on as advocates for something the community looks on as heathen. So the services will be absent for those individuals. They will be excluded in the hope that maybe they will die away, or will be imprisoned--anything horrible.

That's what they would like to happen to the gay and lesbian individuals. It's an unfortunate situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That uses up the five minutes we had for that round.

Mr. Marston, s'il vous plaît.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

I want to say to you that I am impressed with, first of all, your obvious courage, as demonstrated in coming before our committee today—even though it's not televised, it is still an official record—and the compassion you are showing for these good souls back in this country.

One of the things that came up in your presentation was the 201 people you talked about who you thought might want to come specifically to Canada. Overall, what would your estimate be of the numbers of people who, within this foreseeable future, would be interested in trying to get out of this country because of the situation? That's number one, and then I'll throw a few things your way and maybe you can answer them.

You just used the term “heathen” a moment ago, and I was sitting here wrestling with how a society gets to that place. I'm 63 years old now. When I was a boy I can remember gays and lesbians being the butt of jokes and “tee hee” and all of the little subtle things, but it was never at the point, at least in my community, where they were at risk of physical harm. There were other places that might have happened. And we've come a long way in this country.

But going back to Uganda, it seems to me that for a law like this to go forward there is a broader consensus in that community opposing gays and lesbians. I wouldn't mind your comment on how broad you think that may be.

Another question would be if people come here, I presume there are established organizations within Canada in the gay communities that would be of assistance. Perhaps you might be able to enlighten us to some of them that you would foresee playing a role once people got here.

I think I will stop there for now because there are a couple of things, and I'll give you a chance to respond.

[Witness 1]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

To be honest, when it comes to talking of numbers of how many gays and lesbians will try to make their way here, I can't put a number to how many would come over. For us who are able to make it here, in our group, there are already 70 of us, and there are those who are out there as well, so we can put the number so far at probably 150 in Canada.

The 200 who have made requests...and there are others who are adamant about not making requests because they don't think we will be able to do anything. We were clear to them and told them that we are just a social group. We are not that organization with funding and everything, because it involves a lot of work. When we received those many requests we were challenged to do something, and we wanted to get results. We didn't know what to expect. We were surprised with the responses we got from the Prime Minister's Office, the Foreign Affairs office, and even to hear from the committee. We were really surprised by the responses. To make the situation more....appealing, I sent some photographs, which I requested to be private, to show how dire the situation is.

The number? That is unknown. For now I'm looking at the 200. If we can accomplish the mission of bringing the 200, then we'll have opened that door for the remaining 500, or 5,000. Probably the mission in Kenya will look favourably on those individuals who make applications on their sexuality. Again, there are some horror stories about the mission itself in Kenya, yes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I would be concerned about what reception they are receiving when they are applying to come here.

[Witness 1]

That's right.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

There are officials who work from Canada in the embassies, but also there are some native Ugandans who would work there. Is there a stigma attached? Is there a problem there, especially with a law demanding that people report things to their government? That would be concerning as well, I'm sure.

[Witness 1]

That's why we're making the appeal from here to get an assurance from the Canadian government that they will guarantee they will give us the 200 visas. Then we can go and pick those individuals from neighbouring Kenya. Then they can designate a visa officer to work with us. He could be called John or Jane, and Jane will have to consider what I'm telling her ought to be done.

There needs to be a lot of work done when you are discussing issues of sexual orientation and how certain institutions will work around these issues, and whether they're having local staff working there, for example. I say this because I've also heard horror stories about the camps. Gays and lesbians made their way to the camp and they're saying that it's not good there at all; they're scared, they're worried for their lives, and some of them have ended up leaving the camp.

So it's a no-win situation. That's why I'm making more of an urgent appeal. If the government can expedite that mission of these individuals, then we can take it from there. What's the next step? How can we work policy around that? Even the visa applications themselves, when it comes to GLBT issues, there is no way around it—no way around it. The existing visas are for visitors, students, and business. How can you come forward as a gay refugee? It's impossible. It's actually a discussion I'm having with Professor Nicole LaViolette from Ottawa University. She sits on the UNHCR committee on issues to do with sexual orientation. They're exploring avenues for how to address these visa issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We're out of time on that one as well.

Mr. Hiebert, you're next.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you.

You mentioned in your presentation a bill that was introduced about a year ago. Can you tell us the status of this bill? I'm referring to the one that was introduced that would make it--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I have the bill here. It was a motion by the member for Burnaby—New Westminster.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

No, no, not that bill.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You're talking about the bill in the house over there? Oh, okay.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you.

The bill that was introduced in the Ugandan parliament: has the bill been passed? Is it in limbo? Where is it at?