Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 4th, 2010

[Witness 1]

Yes, it has gotten much worse. As I said, I had 200 individuals who contacted me, and many of them are still devising ways to get out. One of them managed to make it to Sweden, and apparently there is another who was admitted to Finland. You know, if they can get any way to make it out of there....

These individuals who have contacted me, most of them are without the money, without funds or something like that, to bribe that agent to take them across to safety. You know, it's a lot of money sometimes that you have to pay for that agent to get you anywhere.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I know my time will run out in a second, so I have one last question I want to ask you, just quickly. You mentioned that there are NGOs on the ground and they are fighting as far as the legal fight and everything, but is there one NGO, or are there some, actually compiling the hate events and hate crimes that are happening, so that we can get a real look at the numbers of people who are being assaulted, abused, outed from their jobs, etc.?

[Witness 1]

That information is not readily available, but the very best source I can tell you about is IGLHRC. It has a long name, I know.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Is this in the material you gave us?

[Witness 1]

I did mention it in the material, yes, and also asylum.org. Information on GLBT prosecution is still very scanty, and no one has done an extensive study on Uganda to give you a precise figure. I can't give you precise figures of people who've been killed or anything. That is unrecorded information. It's very hard to come across it. You would have problems establishing how many GLBT individuals are out there. That would be difficult.

But the source that is trying to compile that information is IGLHRC, and there is also asylumlaw.org and asylum.org. They are two separate organizations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I hate to interrupt here, but perhaps this could be dealt with after the fact. We've gone over your time, Mr. Sweet.

Ms. Deschamps, it's your turn.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I have very little time left. We might need more in order to discuss the topic.

You're asking the Immigration Commission to relax its rules to make it easier and more accessible for the members of your group seeking visas and sponsorship to do so. What could be done quickly?

We know that, with regard to visa applications, for which private sponsorship applications are required, most of those cases are generally refused. Should we placed the people in your group in a separate category from the existing categories? Could that facilitate the efforts of the group you represent?

[Witness 1]

Thank you, Madame Deschamps. You ask a very good question, actually.

I have looked at the visa criteria, at the regulations available. There is nothing where a refugee can come into any mission to request asylum: it's almost...not there. Even while I'm advocating to bring in these 200 to Canada, it is so technical it's mind-boggling. Had I been there myself a long time ago and tried to get a visa to Canada, there was no way I could have gone through it. The application itself is so obscure. It's hidden. You can't get to it.

I told you about regulation 150. If you're making a visa for asylum, the regulations are very clear there. You must accompany it with a permanent residence application, but while you have that permanent residence application, you must have a statement, and you must have other additions--that is, if you know what you're doing.

That's why I'm making this request for me to go down to neighbouring Kenya as part of the logistics, to help these individuals. I've already prepared the dossiers for these individuals because now I know what to do. But for the others.... I'll bring in the 200, but what about the next 200, the next 500? They'll find it impossible.

To be honest, when I contacted the community and the established organizations myself, many people were green. They didn't have that information. They didn't have the know-how.

Mr. Silva mentioned Iran. Some people have done a lot of work on Iran. That information was not readily available. Even the information on the current refugees, how they were brought in here, the Bhutanese refugees, that information is so obscure. I have to go to the university to research that information. It's very technical.

For somebody to seek asylum at a Canadian mission, yes, some have gone there, and they've been refused because they brought in the wrong application. I mean, you are seeking asylum. You've brought a visa application. The visa officer's going to consider what you've put in front of him. Maybe there is some discretion. If I'm a gay visa officer and that individual appears in front of me, there would be that discretion to say, “Yes, I understand, and you should do this, that, and that”. But nobody is available to give that information. It's too technical. Yes, there should be a provision somewhere, somehow, that could encourage people to approach a mission for assistance.

And by the way, these missions are scary. With all that security around, you're going through one, two, three roadblocks. They will ask you what you are there for, for visa, for whatever; you're already disclosing information about what you wanted of the mission.They will intimidate. I would be scared to disclose to an officer at the visa mission that I wanted to apply for asylum. I'd be stopped there.

Again, that's the discussion I'm having with Professor LaViolette of the University of Ottawa. She recognizes those issues. It's a long way to go, honestly, but if Canada can help me with the UPP, the urgent protection program, I know what to do: bring in the 200. Fantastic. I know now what to do.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston, you'll be batting cleanup.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'll be as brief as possible.

I think you've been fairly concise in what you're asking of us, but there are technical aspects to this.

Mr. Chair, I'm wondering if it would be to the advantage of this committee to have somebody from Citizenship and Immigration Canada come to talk about the concerns that have been raised and what might take the pressure points off that are making immigration nearly impossible, from the sound of it. Without that, we're going to be kind of blind in how we make a statement from this committee or go forward on this.

I hear sympathy for your cause right around this table. Irrespective of our own belief structures, we all believe in human rights here, and this very clearly violates our very sense of that.

Mr. Chair, I would make that suggestion.

I'll end with that, because you've been very concise.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

We have an organizing meeting at our next meeting, which is the Tuesday after the break. Perhaps at that time that idea can be discussed and we'll see whether it's the will of the committee to actualize that.

Yes, Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Following on Mr. Marston's recommendation, I think it's an excellent idea. I was hoping that maybe we could have the witness back at the same time. I find with these meetings, where the bureaucracy is before us, they give their version and there's nobody to question them on the technical issues. We're not the experts. We have somebody here who has already gone through the system. It's better to have somebody here who's gone through the system, and knows what the problems are, to help us in terms of dealing with how to get the bureaucracy to cooperate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We'll have to figure out how to do that from a technical point of view.

You mentioned a Professor LaViolette who has a bit of knowledge in this area as well. Is that right?

[Witness 1]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That relates to the technical aspects of the Canadian system.

[Witness 1]

Yes. She's investigating, and she did inquire for me. She's put some submissions to the UNHCR committee about GLBT sexuality asylum applications. I did give her the details of what we, including me, encountered when we were making those visa applications.

In all honesty, you have to lie: there's no way you can disclose that you are gay, because you don't know what kind of person you will encounter. They could be prejudiced. But you could be lucky: they could be just like you.

I was talking about being discretionary. Let's say you bring an application in front of me and it's wrong, and you tell me that you're gay. If I happen to be gay also, then I'll advise you accordingly on your application, and perhaps I'll take it a little forward.

So there is some discretion involved, really.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much.

Before I put the gavel down, I want to conclude with a comment of my own. My father's family came from a line of people who were very religious people, evangelical Christians. Some of them were missionaries who traveled far and wide internationally to bring what they felt, what they genuinely believed, was the word of God and God's message of love—Christ's message of love—to the world. I would like to think that, although most of them have now passed away, they would be appalled that this message of love was now being distorted in this way.

I just wanted to pass that thought along before we end this.

Thank you very much for being here. We are adjourned....

I take that back. I misspoke.

We're turning to Professor Cotler, who has a motion.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chairman, this is a motion I would like to introduce, with committee members' permission. This is our last opportunity to discuss a motion in committee before the G20 is held.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Let's find out.

Is there unanimous consent to...?

There was no translation? Is that because I said “adjourned”?

Let's try that again.

Could you please repeat that? Apparently there was no translation, so nobody was able to hear what you were saying. Let's fire away.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I want to say again in French that this is the last opportunity we'll have before the G20 is held to introduce a motion to request that the Prime Minister and other leaders who will be there make submissions with respect to the two Chinese political prisoners.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Is there unanimous consent in support of Mr. Cotler?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I thought we had chatted about the fact that we had signed the letter, and that we were going to give the diplomatic discretion to initiate that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Are we talking about the motion on the prisoners in China?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Sweet is correct. In other words, a letter has gone forward signed by all members of this committee.