Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 4th, 2010

[Witness 1]

Well, considering the recent events, the outing of the 100 individuals or the top gays and lesbians, it's come to light that it's still ongoing. It's not been shelved at all. The member of Parliament, Mr. Bahati, has said he'll do all he can to push the bill through.

So chances are it will still be passed, because the government is not putting in place any protective measures for those GLBT individuals being affected.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

So the bill has not yet been passed. It's still in the legislative process.

[Witness 1]

Not passed yet, no.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Okay.

With respect to the people whose names were published in the paper, were there any arrests as a result of that? I note the criminal code currently has a prohibition, and I'm wondering if the government actually takes action. Does it enforce the criminal code?

[Witness 1]

It does. Unfortunately, the activists themselves have not been directly affected. It's the silent voices like me, the non-activists, who are being affected, because some of the individuals who contacted me told me they had been detained and had to bribe their way out. Others have died in detention.

I myself was detained, and I had to bribe my way out. Once you're under government authorities--because they know what the law is--you're hidden. You don't have any say in anything. The only alternative is to bribe your way out of the police station or prison, if you have the money. If you're lucky to get out, brilliant; if you're not, too bad.

So when it comes to enforcement, there is mock justice. Parents themselves do not agree with their gay sons and lesbian daughters; they report them to the authorities, or to the equivalent of counsellors. That is what is happening at the moment.

So regarding the outed individuals who appeared in the paper, I haven't had any update yet on what has happened to them. However, many of them have been harassed out of their homes, out of their jobs. Others are already in hiding. That's what I'm hearing. Even of the 200, most of them are already in hiding, moving from one place to another.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I guess what I'm trying to determine is whether or not the government is actually enforcing the law. You've mentioned that people are being harassed and detained. Is the government actually prosecuting and sentencing people to prison?

[Witness 1]

No, not as far as I know, but it is indirectly happening. If the police are involved...they are part of the government. If counsellors are involved, or the equivalent of counsellors here...definitely, government is indirectly involved. But we're not talking of the executive branch of government to enforce these things, although they're very vocal about being anti-gay.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I'm told there was a case initiated two years ago against the Attorney General of Uganda, brought by activists Yvonne Oyo and Victor Juliet Mukasa. Are you familiar with that?

[Witness 1]

Yes, I am.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

What was the basis of the case? What was the outcome?

[Witness 1]

I'm trying to recall here. Apparently they harassed his partner. At the time, Victor was not in the country. He was in South Africa when they harassed his partner. So from the harassment and the publicity of Victor, it sort of got his partner the reprieve not to be detained. They took it to the high court and he sued the government. He was awarded some amount of money, but that money has never been realized.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

I note that the high court recognized that articles 23, 24, and 27 of the Ugandan constitution do apply to the GLBT community. Can you help us understand what those articles—23, 24, and 27—actually say?

[Witness 1]

I'm not familiar with what those articles are. I'm unable to comment on those until I see what they're all about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We're out of time for that question, unfortunately, as well.

We're going to a second round here. We're running just about two minutes behind.

In the past I've been bad at doing this, and I'm trying to correct myself in following the correct order of questioning in the second round, which is different from what it is in the first round. So it's Liberal, then Conservative, then Bloc Québécois, then New Democratic.

So next will be Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much.

Just so we can all be clear and have it on record, it is already a crime in Uganda to be a homosexual, to be a lesbian, to be gay, right?

[Witness 1]

Yes.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

What the new law actually would bring is a further introduction that would broaden it to include the death penalty. Is that the case?

[Witness 1]

Yes. What we're hearing in the grapevine is that apparently they are removing the death penalty, but it's not official. So as far as I'm concerned, it's still in the bill.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I see. Thank you.

We know from reports that gays and lesbians are routinely harassed, discriminated against, and are in fact jailed. This has been going on for quite some time.

You have brought a series of very important points, and some very technical points, and I was speaking to the chair about some of them. What we maybe need as a committee after today is probably to come up with a motion that might be appropriate to deal with some of those technical points.

Although we might not have a motion by today, we're hoping that maybe in working with staff we can come up with something. Working with you as well, we could come up with a motion that will deal with some of your technical points that you raised today on what we as a committee could do. So I would ask that you be in touch with us.

I just wanted you to also maybe give us a description of what's taking place and as well give us an understanding--especially myself, as a gay person, because I sometimes have a hard time understanding--of how these views came to be. There have been discussions in the media about the fact that Ugandans feel that homosexuality was brought out by the western powers. Then there are those who have said it has to do with some of the Christian evangelical churches coming forward from the U.S. and stirring up this problem. Generally speaking, Africans have a negative view about homosexuality. What is the real story here? We've been hearing all these different stories, but we're not sure what exactly is the truth, because we're hearing it through second-hand and third-hand parties.

[Witness 1]

Thank you, Mr. Silva.

On the questions you ask, actually we could start with how the British brought a criminalized homosexuality; that is an argument on its own. Then you can talk of the evangelists themselves; there are so many going to Uganda. They are there as well. But then we also have to look at the fact that Uganda is a very Christian country, very Christian that way. I grew up Christian, and I grew up Catholic, so I have a rough idea of exactly what is going on in the community.

Then there are.... I can't really put a finger on it, basically. I just don't understand where the hate comes from. There are also instances of blackmailing: “If you don't give me this money, I'm going to report you to the authorities.” Then you're at the mercy of that individual who's blackmailing you. Alternatively, if you don't want to suffer the shame—you have a job to protect, you have an education to accomplish—you can either dance to the tune of that individual trying to blackmail you or suffer the consequences of being reported to the authorities and being jailed, for instance, or escaping the country altogether.

So it's many things, really, and everybody's coming up with their powerful opinions. The evangelists themselves are very powerful. They have these big churches. They come with donations and say, oh, this is terrible. They give them the clothes. They have the money. And they're drumming into them the knowledge that this is wrong, that this is what the Bible says.

But I understand the Bible very well. I studied it very well to understand where the Bible condemns homosexuality and everything. Everybody's naive about understanding what really are just teachings. I personally, when I talk to some individuals about the fact that, oh, Sodom and Gomorrah is about this, that, and that, are amazed at the information I provide them, because so-called Sunday schools don't give you that information. They just give you the basic information.

So it is really very hard to put a finger on it. We don't know how far back it goes, but I can acknowledge it's in the community. If you do research, you know it's there.

It's been reported that one of our local kings, who died a long time ago, was a closet gay. He used to have boys brought to him, that type of thing. But this was a king: maybe he was exceptional that way because he was a king.

So it's very hard to put a finger on it, really.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Unfortunately, we've run out of time for this question.

We go now to the Conservatives, to Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think everybody's trying to talk about the circumstance that people in Uganda are in within the GLBT community, so I appreciate that. But on the tone and the conversation, I just feel that before I ask any questions, I must say that there are many people who have a great dedication to the Christian faith and who may even disagree with the lifestyle but would never take it to the point of any kind of evil act or persecution or anything. I just think that's important. In fact there are many people who have those convictions and who would defend the witnesses who are here and the community they're trying to defend. I think that has to be clear.

I'm concerned about the people who are phoning you today, but I'm also concerned long term about Uganda, long term about the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community, long term about the government, and of course the levels of government, the police that you're talking about, who seem to be able to manipulate public sentiment.

My colleague asked you the point about the law being enforced. It seems to me there's a cultural wave against the GLBT community, and the police are manipulating that quite well. Is there a growing network of NGOs on the ground that are working toward not just defending the GLBT community but also working for change in the community and the legislature as well?

[Witness 1]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet, for your question.

Yes, there are some NGOs and they are all trying to do a lot of good in the community. But most of us in our efforts to drive forward legislation, some sort of change, have been defeated. We've ended up leaving the country.

One individual--the individual who made it to Sweden--used to have a clinic. I don't have the details on how it was funded, but it used to get some sort of funding to help the GLBT community on issues of HIV and other ailments. That supported the GLBT community. He ended up leaving the clinic behind. He couldn't run it any longer because he was being hounded, he was being harassed. He was detained a couple of times. He was outed too many times and shamed in his community and to his family. He is Muslim, by the way, so you can imagine what he had to endure. This is an individual who had a clinic, who thought he would do a lot of good and help the community, but his work was frustrated. He had to leave and abandon everything.

He is not the first to have done that. There are many like him who left before him, and even the ones who are there, yes, they're doing their bit to bring about change. At least the activists have that protection that if things do get worse, they can quickly go to the Netherlands embassy, they can go to the French embassy, and seek immediate protection because they are already known figures. It's the silent voices who are not known who are really suffering here.

So that is the situation at the moment.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I just want to make sure you know--because goes by quickly here--that you have my gratitude, and I'm certain the gratitude of all my colleagues, for taking the risk you did to come here and defend those in Uganda.

I also want to also ask you whether things are escalating. Is the reason you're here today because things are getting substantially worse as the days go on than they were in previous times in Uganda?