Evidence of meeting #32 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was violence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
I thought you were going to say that the time was up.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I was about to say that, yes. We're actually a little bit over the time.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
We just have one question. It's by my colleague, and he needs to get back for an S.O. 31. I wonder if we could ask Mr. Marston if it would be okay if he did that first, before Mr. Marston's turn, so that he could get back to the House for the S.O. 31.
1:45 p.m.
NDP
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you.
First of all, I want to say how very much I appreciate the testimony you've provided today. It is certainly a horrific atrocity that is occurring in the Congo and elsewhere, and I am completely empathetic to the concern.
During the course of your statement, you asked what we would do if we found out that 40 rapes were occurring on a daily basis in Canada. That piqued my attention, and so I made a quick request to my staff to tell me how many sexual assaults—because we define it in sexual assault terms in Canada, not as rape—occur in Canada on an annual basis.
To put it in context, you said that 16,000 rapes occur in a population of 71 million in the Congo. That's about 43 per day, or about two per 10,000 people.
In Canada, there are about 21,000 sexual assaults on an annual basis, levels one through three. That's six per 10,000, or about 57 per day.
In the United States, there are 88,000 forceful rapes every year. That's a ratio of 28 per 10,000, or 241 per day.
Those are horrible numbers. Nobody is suggesting that those numbers are acceptable. But when you put it in that context, how do you explain the comparison, that on the face of it, things actually look worse in Canada than they do in the Congo right now?
1:50 p.m.
Research Fellow, Center for Peace Missions and Humanitarian Studies, Raoul-Dandurand Chair of Strategic and Diplomatic Studies
Well, the thing with numbers, especially in the context of where there's a conflict....
I'm going to switch back to French.
The question of numbers is a very thorny and often highly contested question. First of all, the numbers seem enormous, but they in fact don't actually reflect the reality in the field.
If there are more rapes per day in Canada, that's because those rapes are often reported. By comparison, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the Sudan, Darfur and Somalia, rapes are not properly reported, or not accounted for. It's very difficult to find any statistics. It may seem more serious in Canada because we can assume that every crime is reported. In fact, we could even claim that, for every crime reported in the DRC or Somalia, five, six or seven others are not. They aren't reported because women don't want to be labelled as victims of sexual violence. They don't want to suffer ostracism or stigmatization because that will affect their future lives.
As I explained, in Somalia, there is divorce, and the levers of power—even if only economic power—belong to men. Women have no social status as such. Without men, they are nothing. Their access to material or basic needs is completely reduced. That's why a lot of rapes aren't reported. They aren't reported because of all the problems raised by my colleague regarding justice and access to justice. As a result of all kinds of factors, most crimes are not reported.
Numbers are a somewhat thorny issue. I may be speculating, but there are a lot more rapes than what is initially believed.
That would somewhat explain the discrepancy, which you raised, between the number of crimes in the United States and Canada, in so-called functional societies, where there is a judicial system and where assistance is provided to victims. I'm advancing the idea, but—
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Ms. Breton-Le Goff wanted to add something.
1:50 p.m.
Associated Professor, Department of Law, Université du Québec à Montréal
Thank you.
As my colleague pointed out, there is the issue of numbers. We estimate that, for every rape reported, five or six are not. If 40 rapes a day are reported, that means there are 200.
In addition, with respect to the northern European and western countries, we have to be aware that the figures you cite concern sexual assaults, that is to say a spectrum of acts ranging from rape, the most serious act, to highly offensive and humiliating acts that are not of the same degree of severity, such as sexual harassment, inappropriate comments, etc.
In countries like the Democratic Republic of the Congo, there is no notion of sexual harassment. For cultural reasons, it is an act that absolutely no one would consider denouncing or reporting because relations between men and women are essentially based on inequality and discrimination against women, and on the subordination of women to the pleasure and will of men. Consequently, when the women of the Democratic Republic of the Congo talk about sexual violence, these are extremely serious acts. I don't think your figures are entirely comparable.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I think one point we can't go away from here is the fact that in these countries, rape is a crime of shame. It's used to taint women who then have insulted the man because of that inequality in the relationship. I think we have to approach this situation very cautiously, because all of us become impassioned by such conversation. Even our sensibilities are assaulted by considering what happens to women and children and young boys in those countries. As Canadians we tend to look for easy answers to questions. These are far more complex.
I'll use a personal example. Sharia law was raised here a few moments ago. I spent six months in Saudi Arabia in 1979, and you could blatantly see the cultural differences of the men and women there. I had an interpreter in my office who had been assigned to the American military for 16 years. He sounded very well educated, and was a very personable, very likeable man. We were talking about the very point of where women, his wife in particular, were situated, and I was very struck by his answer. He said, “My father and mother are first, because I come from them; my brother, because I share his blood; my children, because they share my blood, and my sons carry my name.” If you see me choking up a little bit, it's because next he told me, “Fourth is my car, and fifth is my wife.” When I asked him why in the world he would put his wife after his car, he said, “Everybody needs transportation, and anybody can buy a wife.”
Now, when I saw this man with his wife, he paid her respect in public. You never would have guessed the societal thinking underneath that. That very positioning of women in this society is what opens the door for people to start.... Once one person is deemed “less than”, then the things you do to them become less than.
What I'm really concerned about in the testimony we're hearing here today is with regard to the military in these countries where the armies are doing these things. It seems to me the leadership of that military will have either directed this or at least offered benign neglect to allow it to happen.
Is there any evidence at all that the military leaders in these countries have publicly or privately sanctioned these activities?
1:55 p.m.
Research Fellow, Center for Peace Missions and Humanitarian Studies, Raoul-Dandurand Chair of Strategic and Diplomatic Studies
Your comment on your experience in Saudi Arabia is quite appalling. Talking about military authorities, I recently saw a documentary entitled Weapon of War, which concerned the issue of sexual violence in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. It follows the story of Captain Basima, a former rebel who joined the new Congolese army. When he joined it, Captain Basima went around the activity centres to make the men aware of the issue of sexual violence. He tried to inform them about international law, about the conventions protecting women, about women's human rights, the right to gender equality, etc. At one point in the documentary, it was really interesting. The man who was responsible for the soldiers' awareness training told how he seduced his wife. He told how he found her very pretty and how much he wanted her. He had to have her at any cost, and that's what he did. In a way, he pardoned his violent behaviour toward that woman. That same man was responsible for the awareness training. There's something wrong when the person who is responsible himself internalizes those standards of social behaviour. The fact that anyone talks about sexual violence as a crime in the Congolese army is progress in itself. However, there's still a lot of work to be done with regard to social standards. There's no easy solution.
On the other hand, having somewhat studied and known people who provide training on sexual violence to UN staff deployed on missions, I know that training often lasts two weeks. Once staff go out on mission, training is offered by a cell that focuses a lot on details, on communications, on radio, etc. In that two-week training, they spend a morning on sexual violence, on questions of that kind, and so on. There's only one morning out of a two-week training course. Most of the military members surveyed after the training have a vague idea of what sexual violence, gender and discrimination are. It's a matter of social standards. Often the military members, who belong to this highly patriarchal and militaristic institution, perceive all this as an attack on their cultural standards. They are very reluctant about this type of training, about this type of dialogue for fighting sexual violence, from the standpoint of social standards.
2 p.m.
Associated Professor, Department of Law, Université du Québec à Montréal
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
To answer your question specifically, yes, the military court—the military tribunal responsible for prosecuting accuseds for this type of offence—occasionally prosecutes people for violent sexual crimes. Convictions have even been obtained. There are too few of them relative to the number of violent acts committed, but the tribunal is nevertheless doing its job. The problem of military justice is that it is essentially ranking military members who are prosecuted. Line superiors are not accountable, hence the difficulty and the continued impunity in the armed forces.
2 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
The reference to sharia law takes me back to Saudi Arabia. The time I was there, a man was beheaded for assaulting an eight-year-old boy. The severity of the punishment struck me at the time, and the fact that they responded to it. I never heard anything regarding attacks on women, so there is a disparity.
My point is cautionary, that we don't start lumping religion and society in the same place. Throughout Africa, tribal wars have gone on for generations. Rape had been part of the punishment and part of the activity of war between the tribes. Now it seems to be far more systemic in nature. I'm very, very concerned. To turn that kind of thing around means turning a society around, not just the military. As you say, the court systems, the investigators can't stand up to it.
How do we reach society so that people don't wish to take part in such crimes no matter what the justification or the excuse? It's education.
2 p.m.
Research Fellow, Center for Peace Missions and Humanitarian Studies, Raoul-Dandurand Chair of Strategic and Diplomatic Studies
What do we do? We do a lot.
2 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
You were talking about limited education just a moment ago. We have to find a way to hold the leadership of these countries responsible.
2 p.m.
Research Fellow, Center for Peace Missions and Humanitarian Studies, Raoul-Dandurand Chair of Strategic and Diplomatic Studies
As my colleague said,
it is crucial that the most highly ranking members of the military or political hierarchy be held responsible. That's definite. We can't attack the 15-year-old child soldier who finds himself in a general climate of violence and impunity.
She was talking about the DRC's 2006 act, but, upstream, rape wasn't even mentioned in the act. In a number of other countries, rape is neither an offence nor a crime. The definition of what constitutes rape is so vague, it is subject to interpretation. Yes, we have to go the highest level and put pressure on political authorities to ensure they make every possible effort to fight sex crimes. Nothing will change until efforts are made upstream, in social terms, and until the parties to the conflict are reconciled.
Personally, I've worked a little more on the DRC. A woman victim of violence will be rejected by the community. However, she depends on her integration in the community. We have to operate at the community level. We have to listen to these women's NGOs and we especially have to involve the men, in education, in rebuilding a more egalitarian society, to break down prejudices that, in their minds, justify this type of violence against women.
2 p.m.
Associated Professor, Department of Law, Université du Québec à Montréal
Thank you.
The 2006 act was considered as major progress when it introduced the notion of marital rape, for example, which previously absolutely did not exist and now makes it possible to prosecute people for a number of types of sexual violence, such as sexual slavery and forced marriage. The 2006 act represents progress. The problem is that it is not accompanied, in the country's legislation, by a revision or amendment of discriminatory statutory provisions that still exist, particularly in the Family Code and in the Labour Code.
For example, married women are currently considered minors, whereas single women are considered adults. They may decide on how to manage their property and freely sign contracts. A married woman does not have the opportunity to manage household property if her husband does not give her permission to do so. A married woman cannot sign a contract of employment if her husband does not give her permission to do so. Discrimination still persists in that same national legislation. It's very frustrating because the Constitution clearly states the rule of equality between men and women. It's constitutional.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
That uses up all our time.
Thanks to our witnesses.
Mr. Silva advises me that he has a motion he'd like to present to us, for which I believe there may be unanimous consent.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON
Yes.
I hate to do this to members, but I am not here next week. My trade committee is meeting. That's the reason I have to move this now. It is my only opportunity.
I have spoken to Madame Deschamps. She's in agreement. First of all, I'm asking for the adoption of my motion. Number two, I'm asking that the meeting be held on December 2 at 12:30. I believe all the members would agree. Mr. Sweet can't be here, but I've assured him that we'll just be hearing testimony and that there will be no motions being adopted. Third, I'm proposing that Pakistan be added to the study. Madame Deschamps, who was the mover of the motion, is in agreement with it. There's an added little amendment, which says “in fragile states and/or in situations of conflict”.
That would be the motion I will be moving.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
You've all heard the terms of the amendment to the existing motion. Is there any comment on it?
(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Thank you very much. That's done.
We are adjourned.