Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2010

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay. I just wanted to make sure that it was on the record.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

No, that's fine. That was my intent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay. Thank you.

Is it Mr. Sweet next, or Mr. Lunney?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'll certainly endeavour to be brief and make sure that my colleague gets some time.

Thank you very much for your time and for giving us some great testimony.

In the same kind of spirit as the last question from Mr. Marston, has there been a good, robust dialogue with DFAIT regarding what the plan still requires for it to be effective? You mentioned that it has to be effective at the macro level and at the community level. Is there still some ongoing dialogue about that? Have you actually put back to DFAIT and some of the other partners the necessity of really understanding what's going on, on the ground?

[Joanne Lebert]

Not yet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay. Now, when you say “not yet”, have you tried to go back to that dialogue?

[Joanne Lebert]

I was responsible for this file at Peacebuild, and I've since moved on. To be honest, Peacebuild has no funding at the moment, so the capacity to organize civil society around this issue has been greatly diminished. There is no central focal point right now that can go to DFAIT and make this statement.

Personally, I think the people I know who work on this issue at DFAIT would be very interested in continuing this conversation, although some of those people have already moved on. That's where we see one of the problems. Six months or 12 months on, those responsible for the file have moved on. So we've lost our focal point and have to kind of start all over. We don't have somebody who can take up this issue and carry the torch.

I am talking informally with Peacebuild and civil society representatives in my own personal capacity and am asking about having a round table on what's next, but that's on an entirely voluntary basis. Everybody does this. All of our funds are kind of up in the air, so we all do it because we're committed. We're interested in the issue and in seeing it happen.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Some are government funded, and some are private donations, is that it?

[Joanne Lebert]

Sure. Yes, it's a mix.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

You mentioned something, and I need you to elucidate to better understand. You mentioned that there's a lack of trust on the ground in a lot of the NGOs. Is it simply what Madame St-Pierre said about duplication, or is there a broader concern with NGOs on the ground in the local communities?

[Joanne Lebert]

It's a lot of what Madame St-Pierre has said. There is some duplication.

About a year and a half ago, we had a woman speak to us who represented a local church in the eastern Congo. She provided very clear evidence that their community initiatives to address social violence, and to ensure that it doesn't flare up in the community, were actually quite effective. She was concerned that NGOs, the foreign NGOs that were coming into the region, had set up some programs with a lot of money. They were operating on no funds in this church-based organization, so they were essentially being eclipsed by the efforts of these NGOs with which they hadn't really had any communication and that hadn't consulted them. They were a little miffed about that.

In my own work on gender and the extractives, I had known that she had done some field work on her own in the region about this issue. But she was reluctant to share it with anybody outside of the DRC. she wanted to control that data because it had been misappropriated in the past.

Also, again, to look at this issue of representation, the way this issue of sexual violence has been portrayed in the media and in Hollywood, and at all levels, has really infantilized African women. They don't want to be caught up in that. They want to have agency and power over their own information and how they're portrayed. So there's this kind of growing skepticism, I think, and a reluctance to share information and to be held captive and hostage to these kinds of games of representation that are going on.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay. That's what I was going to ask you. When you're talking about the data being misappropriated, there are really these false stereotypes that are being created. Is there some other aspect of this misappropriation?

[Joanne Lebert]

There's that part, but there's also the information being used. Women who have been victimized are asked to tell their stories over and over. I mean, they're being re-victimized. Then that information is used to raise funds for an organization or an initiative. There is often a disconnect afterwards, once the stories are usurped. They don't see the benefits--or only certain women in the community see the benefits. It's not a community-based approach; it's a very individual approach. Those are the dynamics as well.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

It might be oversimplifying it, but it's, “I endure the emotional pain to revisit my story and yet I never see anything coming in the community”.

[Joanne Lebert]

Yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

My colleague has a question.

Thank you very much, Ms. Lebert.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, David.

Many of the problems we're discussing, these horrendous abuses that have taken place, are still going on, and that we're all concerned about, exist where there's a lack of governance capacity. There's a lack of judicial capacity. There's a lack of police, or if there are police, control structures are not in place. There is all of that.

When you're addressing the issue of how we're not putting enough money into solving the problem, I'm sort of hearing that here.... You know, the Government of Canada is putting a lot of effort into these countries and, wherever we have access and willing partners, trying to build governance capacity, judicial capacity, and police training to get some authorities in place.

This is not the kind of thing that just happens instantly, regrettably, so I'm just wondering what role these efforts have in addressing the concerns you're mentioning here in terms of the focus of money solving the problems. How do you see that in terms of building governance capacity to address these issues?

[Joanne Lebert]

I'm not sure how to tackle that question. I think it's important for these things to happen simultaneously. I think we're all very pleased to see the Government of Canada's commitment, and that of the DRC in particular, which has invested quite a lot of money on sexual violence programming.

I don't know if I can speak on behalf of those who work on this issue, but we want to see it improved. We want a dialogue to be happening to ensure those local contexts are taken into consideration.

We have also invested, especially from DFAIT, in governance-related issues. These things are necessary, obviously. My personal understanding is that the approach from the government side has often been a very quick injection of funds and the creation of actual physical structures, infrastructure, and training, which is important, but these kinds of very short and quick-impact projects demonstrate visibly that Canada has done something—because we built this police station—and then we leave or the funding ends.

That is my concern. Those are all wrapped up in governance. Governance is important, but what do we mean by governance? Which element are we supporting and funding? I guess what I'm saying is that I do recognize governance as being an important element to address, but I'm a little wary of it.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you. I'm just trying to understand how we can intervene in these terrible abuses when you don't have a police force that's helpful or, worse yet, when they're actually involved in perpetrating some of the crimes. NGOs functioning in that kind of environment have no cover or protection either. It's one of the very big practical problems we have in many parts of the world. We have to find a way to address that, it seems to me.

[Kristine St-Pierre]

I can say from the Pearson Peacekeeping Centre perspective that one of the difficulties is in taking a long-term approach with short-term funding from one to three years. This is the same issue that a lot of international NGOs, or governments implementing programs, deal with.

One of the things that definitely came out of our research in the DRC is the need to work with the actors who are on the ground, whether it is the UN mission or the government, as slow as it can be. Those are the structures in place. In order to advance, we need to work with what is there as much as possible.

[Joanne Lebert]

If I can add to that from a social scientist's perspective and from my fieldwork elsewhere, with the police in particular, I think we have to make it a viable option: an opportunity to contribute to somebody's livelihood, quite frankly. People often go unpaid for long periods of time. It's not seen as a source of stability. It's not seen as a source of status for a young man or a young woman in that community.

Status symbols are shifting in these profoundly turbulent situations. Where status before for a young man was about attaining land and getting married, now it's about arms. Your path to status and success is through violence. What it means to be a man, for instance, has changed. From a social science perspective, with that kind of lens, if we can make policing--the securing of security--something that's attractive and that's seen to enhance a young person's status and security, I think you would get a lot more purchase and a lot more people committed over the long term.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Unfortunately, that will have to conclude the questions. We've run out of time.

I want to take the opportunity to thank our two witnesses. It's very much appreciated that you were able to come today.

I should mention that today's proceedings have been televised, so this will be going out to a wider audience. That's a practice we've adopted for all witness testimony.

As a reminder to members of the subcommittee, on Thursday we'll be looking at the issue of treatment of sexual minorities in Uganda. Our witness, attending by video conference, will be Chantal Desloges from Toronto. That meeting will be televised as well.

A motion was submitted to us a while ago by Professor Cotler regarding Sergei Magnitsky. We held up dealing with it because it was necessary to get some associated documents translated and for Professor Cotler to see if there was consensus on the document.

Professor Cotler, maybe I can turn the floor over to you.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I know that David Sweet had some suggestions, and I agreed to them. Madame Deschamps had some concerns and I sought to incorporate them in the motion itself. It's up to the members now as to what they wish to do.