Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Order, please.

Welcome to the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. It is December 2010, and this is meeting number 36.

Today we have divided our meeting into two parts. The first part, which will last half an hour, will deal with the issue of sexual assault on women and children in fragile states during peacekeeping operations and situations of conflict.

As an individual testifying before us today we have Jürgen Creutzmann, who is a member of the European Parliament. His specialty is talking about the rights of women and their abuse in Pakistan. Once Mr. Creutzmann has completed his presentation, we will divide up our questions based on the amount of time we have left in that half hour. I'll figure out how much is available for each question based on how much time we have at that moment.

Mr. Creutzmann, I invite you to begin, please.

[Jürgen Creutzmann, Member of the European Parliament, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee on human rights in the Canadian Parliament.

First of all, I would like to thank you for inviting me to your honourable House, and for giving me the opportunity to speak about a human rights issue close to my heart--namely, violence against women in Pakistan.

On November 11, 2010, Asia Bibi was declared a blasphemer and sentenced to death by a Pakistani court. As a reaction, millions around the world raised concern over the subhuman treatment of the non-Muslims in Pakistan, and demanded Asia's immediate release.

However, there are many more women like Asia in Pakistan who have become victims of the socio-political system and yet have failed to receive attention from the international community.

Asia Bibi was implicated based on her religious background. However, the majority of Muslim women of Pakistan also become regular victims of similar forms of persecution, which often lead to physical and mental impairment, and sometimes even death.

In the majority of cases, both the state and male relatives of the victim are found to be involved, which makes it almost impossible to secure a respected status for women in Pakistani society.

Pakistan is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which guarantees equality to both genders in society. Yet more than 70% of Pakistani women continue to face violence in the form of injuries, death, honour killing, forced nudity in public, molestation, acid burns, mutilation, rape, social boycott, arrest during professional duties, denial of monetary assistance, and discrimination in educational and health institutions and in business.

Between January and June of 2010, there was a 13% increase in the rate of violence against women in Pakistan. According to government sources, more than 9,400 cases of crimes against women were registered in 2009, which was a 20% increase compared to the year 2008. In 2009, village authorities in Balochistan decreed burying four women alive who wanted to marry the men of their choice. Women who want to escape wife-beating are accused of immorality, and often are subjected to mutilation of nose, eyes, lips, and ears. Some are beaten to death, and others are subjected to acid burns.

According to the Ansar Burney Trust, every seventh day a woman becomes the victim of an acid attack in Pakistan. In 2009 acid attack incidents increased by 19% compared to the previous year. Wives who fail to pay adequate dowries to their bridegrooms are subjected to beating and gas cylinder accidents, often causing third-degree burns and subsequent death.

The Ansar Burney Trust reports that eight women, including four minors, are raped every day in Pakistan.

The Aurat Foundation states that abduction and kidnapping contributed toward almost one-third of the total criminal cases against women between January and June of 2010.

The Pakistani state must honour the UN declaration to eliminate all kinds of violence against women in public and private life. The rulers must make efforts to enhance education on gender equality. Police and the judiciary should be reformed to address the needs of women. Such customs as dowries should be declared illegal.

The media can play a positive role, and progressive religious scholars should be given more time on the radio and television in this regard.

My speech would be incomplete without mentioning the status of women in Gilgit-Baltistan--a region strategically located between Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and China--which has remained under Pakistan's occupation since 1947. Gilgit-Baltistan is part of the former princely State of Jammu and Kashmir, which continues to experience human rights violations under the oppressive Pakistani military.

Pakistan's policies have hurt the region, and the female segment of society suffers the most from these injustices.

Recently we registered a non-profit organization presence, by the name of Friends of Gilgit-Baltistan, to evaluate the suffering of the flood victims in this region who are neglected by the Pakistani government. Eventually, the scope of the activities of this organization could be extended to also address the problems of violence against women.

According to World Bank estimates, the number of government-sponsored schools in Gilgit-Baltistan covers less than 5% of the total female population of Gilgit-Baltistan.

Like education, the health sector catering to the needs of the women of Gilgit-Baltistan also lacks attention. For instance, the entire region of Gilgit-Baltistan is over two million people; it's dependent on one single gynecologist.

Security forces present in Gilgit-Baltistan commit terrible crimes against the native women with impunity. Police and security forces act as sexual predators and use rape as a psychological weapon to defile honour and induce fear. The women living in the villages along the line of control are regularly victimized by the security forces, militants, and police authorities.

The solution to these problems lies in the withdrawal of Pakistani security forces and the terrorists who, without any fear of accountability for their actions, roam free and terrorize women in the villages along the line of control.

As a member of the European Parliament and chair of the Friends of Gilgit-Baltistan, which adopted a resolution by an overwhelming majority demanding political and economic reforms in Gilgit-Baltistan in 2007, I have asked from Pakistan that women, who constitute more than half of the total population of Gilgit-Baltistan, be given equal rights, especially equal access to education and health facilities.

For this reason, the international community should call on Pakistan to improve the living standards of the women in Gilgit-Baltistan before expecting any grants and development funds. I would also encourage the members of this committee and the Canadian Parliament to look into the issues of violence against women in Pakistan and Gilgit-Baltistan and take action against these human rights violations.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Just looking at the time, we have enough time to do question-and-answer rounds that are five minutes long. I want to urge all the members of the committee to remember that if you eat up the five minutes with a question, you don't get much of an answer. So let's keep our questions short. Make them questions, not statements.

We'll start with the Liberals.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have had several reports about what's taking place in Pakistan, by groups ranging from Amnesty International to Human Rights Watch to other human rights organizations, that are deeply troubling—everything from murder to torture of political prisoners and political activists, both in Gilgit-Baltistan and also in the Baluchi area. There are about 40 arrests of leaders this year that we know of. We have deeply troubling issues of women's and girls' rights constantly being violated, cases in which there is rape, domestic violence, and forced marriages.

We have discriminatory laws and violence against religious minorities as well taking place in Pakistan. Some reports talk about corruption being widespread within the government, and about the police force and the government making few attempts to combat the problems of rape, domestic violence, and sexual harassment. Abuse against women remains a serious problem. Honour crimes and discriminatory legislation affect women and religious minorities respectively. Religious freedom violations and inter-sectarian religious conflict continue, with several bombings, both the Ahmadiyyan community and the Christian community being attacked in Pakistan.

Just recently, there was WikiLeaks talk also about the proliferation of nuclear weapons taking place in Pakistan, with the west being very much concerned about those weapons getting into terrorist hands.

I know that you and members of the European Parliament have been very much concerned about the human rights situation in Pakistan. You are the chair of the Friends of Gilgit-Baltistan. I believe the European Parliament—and maybe you could speak further on this—has passed a resolution talking about the human rights violations experience of being denied basic rights suffered by people in the Gilgit-Baltistan region of Pakistan, including incredibly high rates of illiteracy, poverty, local officials being jailed, and lack of basic democracy and self-governance.

Would you please elaborate on what the European Parliament has done in terms of that resolution of May 24, 2007? And also, what has been the reaction of the Pakistan government, and what further action could the European Parliament and we as the Canadian Parliament take to help the situation in Gilgit-Baltistan?

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

The problem is that our last resolution was passed in 2007. It was a very detailed resolution about the problems in Pakistan.

You know there is a conflict between India and Pakistan, and Gilgit-Baltistan is one area that's very close to Kashmir. That's a problem. You have to ensure there is not another war between the two big countries, because they both have nuclear weapons and it could be an issue.

When I asked some people why India was so interested in this issue, they said that when the Americans leave Afghanistan, it could be a very crucial situation, because when all of its soldiers are out of the region, this could create problems there. That's why it's very important to look at the issues in that area, because we should look at these before a war comes, or whatever.

We have a lot of weak areas in the world, which is another reason we should consider this area. China is also interested in the area because they have a lot of mining operations, and they have water for Pakistan. That's why this is a very crucial issue.

We have to look at the issue before it is too late.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

There were 522 members who voted in favour of the resolution before the European Parliament—I have your brochures, which I'd like to distribute to members—so it was a very strong condemnation of Pakistan for the human rights violations taking place in that country, specifically in the region of Gilgit-Baltistan.

I just think that we as parliamentarians should be doing exactly the same thing as the Europeans, who have shown leadership on this.

Has there been any fallout? Have there been any discussions since that resolution? Has there been a delegation of parliamentarians going to see what's taking place in that region?

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

We have to think that it's been three years since the resolution was passed. It was a big majority, as you mentioned. We have to get very close to the issue again. When you make a resolution and the other partner says lies--perhaps something has changed a little bit, but not too much--you have to consider, from time to time, going public. The only thing you can do is generate publicity via the press or in parliaments and create a little bit of pressure on the Pakistani government to change a little bit.

In Gilgit-Baltistan there were so-called provincial elections, but no one among the people living there was allowed to found a party and be voted for. All of the parties came from elsewhere in Pakistan, and that's the problem. We should give them a little more self-determination; that's the only thing you can do to help the people there. They are very poor.

For example, during the Pakistani flood, a lot of flood victims were also from Gilgit-Baltistan, but the money that was given to Pakistan didn't go to Gilgit-Baltistan or that area. So you can see that is a big problem.

In terms of violence against women--I have a picture here of Ansar Burney Trust--the violent acid attacks on women are a big problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That is the first round.

Mr. Dorion, please.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being with us and telling us about a situation which seems quite appalling.

In Canada and Québec, there is a large Pakistani population. In our contact with that community, we generally do not see, at least in the immigrant Pakistani population here in Canada, problems as serious as the ones you're speaking out against in Pakistan. I suppose one can assume that immigrants to Canada are from a better educated and more successful segment of the population.

In Pakistan itself, I presume there are major differences in the amount of violence of this kind that occurs, depending on people's social class and whether they are educated and better off, or poor and less educated. Is that what you've seen? If that's the case, that would mean that Pakistani leaders may be indifferent to what is going on in the lower social classes and to the fact that there are two cultures? Is that what you have observed?

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

Yes. You see, when somebody leaves the country for another, normally they're among the best; that's true in every wave of immigration. If you look at the immigrants who come into a country, it is the well-educated who are coming. They say, okay, I have a chance in that country, a chance to live in a free land like Canada.

There are big differences between the wealthier people and the poor people—and you see this coming from religion a little bit—such that perhaps in well-educated families the violence is not so strong and the respect for women is perhaps better than among the lower-educated classes. I think that is a problem.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

There was even a woman leader in Pakistan for several years, Ms. Benazir Bhutto, and she played an important role in Pakistan's political life.

In your opinion, is that an illustration of the fact that in the educated and successful social classes, which are running the country, women have a much higher status?

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

Yes, I would agree.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

We have heard that there are female police forces that handle this type of offence, but we're told that they are not effective.

In your opinion, what should be done to increase the number of women police officers, so that women are done justice and are better treated?

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

It would be good. You see this in a country such as the one I come from, Germany, where we have a lot more women as police. They can take part in de-escalation and can build up trust.

It would be a great advantage if they were to do likewise, but you have to look at the problem that here you have the religious problem, the social interest problem, of Muslims dominating. That's why the violence against women is coming from the religious; that's the main problem you can see, and nobody will change it.

It is the same problem we have here even in the meeting about Afghanistan: as you have said, the same problem is coming out, that the majority are Muslims and that it's normal from the religious standpoint that you have violence and other things practised against women.

That's the problem there, and they have to change. They need more gender respect, I would say, and more respect toward women, without religion dominating. We know that from other countries, where it's clear that women should not be violated.

That's the main problem I see, that the religious foundation is one of the bases, as I have told you in my remarks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That completes the time we have for that question.

I'm sorry, but your time is up.

Please go ahead, Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you for your testimony today, and thank you for the work that the government is doing on this file. It's interesting to listen to your descriptions, because what you are describing is a very pervasive, widespread physical and sexual abuse of women in Pakistan. That is close to the same kinds of testimony we've heard about Afghanistan. Of course, there's a more direct conflict happening in Afghanistan. But it sounds as though the discrimination against women in particular runs very deep culturally. It's not just a matter of a few loose cannons in the government who are doing this; it's widespread and goes deep into the society.

Our study is on the sexual assault of women and children during peacekeeping operations or in fragile states or in situations of conflict. You have this situation in which the so-called insurgents in Afghanistan go back into the Swat valley, if I remember correctly, in Pakistan. I'm wondering, first of all, whether you see an added impact in Pakistan as a result of that, more or less.

The other thing I'm wondering is this. This is an awkward one, in the sense that we heard testimony earlier this week that in Afghanistan young boys are paraded around dressed as girls and then sold to the highest bidder, fundamentally, and the abuses just begin at that stage.

Are there things like that also occurring in Pakistan?

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

This I don't know. What I saw yesterday evening was very interesting for me. It could be that what you describe is coming out from the culture. I would say that what you have in Afghanistan...perhaps not so strongly, because you have the domination of the Taliban and so on. They have the same culture. They have the same religious background...and it could be that also.

I have here, from Amnesty International, their report on violence against women and girls. Women continue to be victims of honour killings, I would like to mention, with 960 incidents reported. In September the Punjab law minister announced that crimes against women would be tried under the anti-terrorism act. Taliban groups closed or burned down girls schools, forced women to wear a veil, and prohibited them from leaving their homes unless accompanied by male relatives. Several women were punished, shot dead, or mutilated for alleged immoral activities.

This is coming from the religious ones in the country. The problem is that they will not change their culture.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I spent some time in the Middle East in the seventies. There's a separation between what is religious-based and what's cultural. You find that most of the mutilations and the honour killings and all those things have nothing to do with Islam at all. They have more to do with the cultural society that they're in, and they tend to be—at least in the experience I had—associated more with very poor, uneducated people. It seems to me that to begin to address this, you have to have a government in place that's going to say, “We have to change the culture, we have to educate people that this is wrong.”

In our society, the religious community would join in that. That might be something that hopefully could happen in these countries. I'm not so sure how we go about it, but as I listened to your testimony during your remarks, you were saying that any aid money that was going over there should be tied to some demonstrated change.

The hard part about that is to decide what the benchmarks are and what the timeline is. How do you say you've done this? We were talking about tying aid dollars that go to Afghanistan with human rights changes there. That's probably the only real tool we have.

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

I would say that what you mention is very important. The problem is also education. That's why you have to invest in education: when you have higher-educated people, you have more respect for women, for example.

But there's also a lack of money going into this. I mentioned that you have only one school in that region for women. That is the main problem I see. We should give money to them in that area not for fighting but for providing better education. When you have better education, the government can also bring a little bit of thinking into--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

But they have to find their own way out of this, in reality. Ultimately they're the ones who are responsible for their own destiny.

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

Right. You can't compare a democracy to the area they are living in. The only thing I see is that while they will not change their religion, you get better-educated people—

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I would like to interject just for a moment.

You just said that they won't change their religion. I don't really believe that the religion is the problem; I believe that the problem rests in a society that devalues women totally.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We've used up your time as well, Mr. Marston. I apologize.

Did you have a brief response to that, Mr. Creutzmann?

[Jürgen Creutzmann]

No, I agree with what Mr. Marston said. There's no difference.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Is it Mr. Hiebert or Mr. Sweet next?

Mr. Hiebert.