Evidence of meeting #36 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pakistan.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Creutzmann, for being with us. I appreciate your testimony. It is, as others have mentioned, similar to the testimony that we received earlier this week about what's happening in Afghanistan. It's absolutely horrendous.
Just to put some context here, you mentioned, I believe, in your testimony a moment ago, if I got it correctly, that there was a surge of abuse by 90% between sometime before 2009 and 2009. Was that correct?
1 p.m.
Member of the European Parliament, As an Individual
What I mentioned was that the number of victims increased in a tremendous way. You can see this in all these papers I have about the situation of violence against women in Pakistan; you see that you have 366 cases of murder, 90 cases of honour killings. This is increasing.
I think the percentage I mentioned was for the increase in injuries they have, and it was 19%, not 90%, that I mentioned.
Perhaps my spelling was not so good.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
That's fine.
Do you have any explanation as to why it's increasing by any amount of significance?
1 p.m.
Member of the European Parliament, As an Individual
As we were discussing before, my idea or my impression is that in that area of Pakistan they are very close to Afghanistan, and they have the same culture—not the same religion, but let's say the same culture—and that's a problem. The man is dominant and there is no respect for women or girls.
The only way I see the problem changing is to put a little pressure from outside with the press and have a discussion of these things. Then perhaps the government would change a little bit.
The resolution we made in the European Parliament also changed a little bit, but from time to time you have to edit or adjust it in terms of whatever the problem is. For example, we had a discussion in the European Parliament about the flood victims. I proposed to the commissioner, please don't give money only to the government in Pakistan; please consider giving the money to NGOs living in that area. In Gilgit-Baltistan, for example, there are a lot of flood victims, and only NGOs can help them. That's why we founded the foundation to help the people there.
That's the problem you have. It's very difficult, too, that the Pakistani government is in a war, you would have to say, when you look at Afghanistan and the terrorist attacks happening in Pakistan. They think, “It's not our problem.” I mentioned that Gilgit-Baltistan had an election, but nobody in the population could found a party and be elected.
So I think the only thing you can do is have the Europeans, the Canadians—the free societies, I would say—require change for the people who are living there.
1 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Do you suggest that we as free societies, as you state, tie our aid to actions by the Pakistani government, or other governments for that matter? Do you think it's a worthwhile foreign policy to say we'll give you a certain amount of money, and if you show us some progress in your areas of human rights then we'll give you more money?
Is that what you're suggesting?
1 p.m.
Member of the European Parliament, As an Individual
The problem is that the United States has a strategic interest in that area, and knows there are two countries who have the atomic bomb, Pakistan and India, and therefore absorbed the problems of Afghanistan. That's why the Pakistani government can do a lot and the pressure perhaps will not be so hard, because the U.S. interest in that area is to have the Pakistani government support the U.S. aims, which is perhaps not to win but to come to a good solution in Afghanistan.
The only thing I see is that, as the free world, we say something from time to time on that issue, and there could be a change from time to time. But we have yet a long way to go, I am sure.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
So you're not necessarily advocating that we tie our aid. You think it's more useful to speak out and to be public about our criticisms--
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
--as opposed to holding money at bay.
1:05 p.m.
Member of the European Parliament, As an Individual
When you can do that and it helps...but that's why it makes sense, perhaps, to give money to help non-profit organizations, who are closer. In the morning, I met someone--a doctor here in the Canadian Parliament--who is sending medicine, I understood him to say, to Gilgit-Baltistan. That helps the population more.
In terms of having pressure and saying, “You get money only when you....”
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
1:05 p.m.
Member of the European Parliament, As an Individual
I fear that threat as a society will not be the way to do it. You can apply pressure on the government publicly, as we're doing here today, and give money, as we did for the flood victims, not directly to the Pakistani government but to non-profit organizations who are very close to the people and who can help them.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Chair, I'm looking for just one clarification, if the committee would let me have 30 seconds.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Creutzmann, thank you for being here.
I've read a number of things, and one of them is Mortenson's book, Three Cups of Tea, regarding this area of Pakistan. It's kind of like the wild west.
You mentioned the American policy. Are you suggesting that because the government wants to contain the Taliban who are running from Afghanistan into that area, this is exacerbating the violence, and may be causing the spike in the violence as well?
1:05 p.m.
Member of the European Parliament, As an Individual
Pardon, could you repeat? I did not understand the question.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
You had mentioned a couple of things; I was just trying to tie them together.
You mentioned that you felt that one of the exacerbating elements here was the American policy. I was just asking if that was causing Pakistan to contain that area, and if because of that there was a saturation of Taliban and this was causing the spike in violence.
1:05 p.m.
Member of the European Parliament, As an Individual
What I would like to mention is that we are discussing what we can do, and whether we could put pressure on the government, and how you could follow. I fear that because there are different interests in that area—I will not blame the United States, that is not the problem, but I see they have an interest there—it will be very difficult to look at the human rights. That is my fear.
You can do this with money, but my fear is that they will get the money because they need a stabilized country in Pakistan. I would propose to make it public, to discuss it, and to give money to NGOs. That's why I asked the commissioner to give the money not directly to the government but directly to human rights organizations who are very close to the people and who can help them.
Otherwise, you know, all these areas are very corrupt, and it could be that the money goes directly into the pockets of whoever, not to the people.
That's what I wanted to mention.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you.
Just for the comfort of the witness, I wasn't implying that he was saying the U.S. was complicit. I was just trying to capture why this spike may have happened.
That's all, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you very much to my colleagues.
1:05 p.m.
Liberal
Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON
Just very briefly, as we're aware, Mr. Creutzmann is the chair of the European Parliament and the Friends of Gilgit-Baltistan, and they brought brochures. Unfortunately they are all in English, but I have asked that they be translated. I'll have the French copies next week, but I was wondering if I could give the brochures at the moment, with members' permission, in English, and then next week I'll provide the French copies to all the members.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Is there unanimous consent to proceed in this manner?
Monsieur Dorion.
1:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean Dorion Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC
Can we be given copies? This is not a document from the House; it's not from the government.
1:10 p.m.
Bloc
Jean Dorion Bloc Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC
And we will definitely receive the French version next week?