Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 15th, 2011

[Dr. Payam Akhavan]

Perhaps I would say, to what is a very good but complex question, simply that I would hold Canada to a higher standard than I would hold other countries in the west, frankly speaking. The European Union is still the biggest trading partner of Iran. I would say the Europeans' record on Iran is very unfortunate. The United States has a very different history. So in a sense, Canada is uniquely positioned to do more than other countries. It's in that regard that I would hope the government acts to adopt the excellent recommendations made by this subcommittee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I hope I don't butcher our guest's name, Boroumand, in Washington. I'd like to direct some comments to you.

All of the testimonies have one striking similarity that we're hearing today, and that's the massive increase in executions over the recent weeks. To my mind, following the elections in Iran and the uprising, this regime was very clearly preparing itself to block any move in the future to any form of democracy in that country.

Dr. Akhavan talked about assembling of information. I think in some sense of the word, information was what led to the uprising in Egypt and bred the conditions. Dr. Akhavan spoke of having a centre. I believe you suggested it be in Canada. My question to you is this. Do you see that being more effective somewhere closer on the ground? Should it be something administered by the United Nations or by international governments on their own case?

[Dr. Roya Boroumand]

This is a difficult question because I think several measures should be taken together.

Regarding Mr. Akhavan's project, the more we have human rights documentation, the more the international community will be informed. But my concern is more serious for the activists who are leaving Iran or those who are imprisoned. I think that without them we will not be able to do any documentation. As individuals and groups living in democracies and as democratic governments, we should not give the activists the impression they are useful while they are giving us information and they are useless once they can't.

With the technology today, the situation is much different than in the 1980s. We left Iran and we lost touch, because it was dangerous to be in touch and it was not easy to be in touch. These activists are in touch because they can. There is technology that allows them to be in touch. But if they cannot do anything about the information they get from their counterparts in Iran, they will not be able to keep the contact. They will become irrelevant.

So I think it is very crucial for governments and civil society and donor communities to think through and to devise projects--not only for Iran, but of course Iran is our subject today--that would provide some training, intensive language training, some psychological care, and some training for journalists, for human rights activists by their peers here, and some training in advocacy and the way the system works outside Iran and in the UN, so they have something to transmit to their friends in Iran, so they don't feel as if they have been forgotten because they have left.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

The committee report we did earlier had suggestions in it for our government around helping on the ground and here in Canada with precisely what you're talking about: giving those supports.

I don't know who to direct this question to; anybody might have the answer. Is there any evidence as to where the regime has invested their money around the world? Information is one thing and seizing their assets is quite another. Is anybody aware of any documentation that could lead us as a country to any funds here in Canada?

[Dr. Payam Akhavan]

Perhaps I'll just quickly say that if the Canadian government invests resources, I'm sure they can find out. This is the problem; this is not something a group of activists can do. Dubai, United Arab Emirates, now seems to be the biggest economic hub, and the regime uses thousands of front companies to bypass the sanctions. There are stories of bank accounts in the U.K., in Switzerland, in Germany. The point is that all we have is hearsay, rumours, for which Iranians have a great talent. The point is to make governments take seriously how many economic migrants in Canada are properly screened when they show up with several million dollars in their bank account and no one really knows what they were doing. And we really don't want to ask questions because we want their funds.

If I may, just very quickly, Mr. Marston, following your question, I would also say that if we could set up a documentation centre in Iran, surely that's what we would do. Under the present circumstances, we in the diaspora are trying to support efforts within the country to do certain things that are not possible. Further to what Dr. Boroumand said, one of the activities NGOs can do is training. I'd rather not talk too openly about training because the question is, where do you do it to make sure that people from Iran have access and that they don't end up in prison when they go back? But there is a tremendous opportunity for training people in everything from languages to computer technology to leadership to non-violent resistance tactics.

All this to say that funds can go a very long way when directed in a concentrated way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much.

We now turn to Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

On that last note, I might just mention that it may be worthwhile in the not too distant future to have an in camera session with the witnesses we have now so that they can speak on more specifics, which, as Dr. Akhavan has mentioned, would probably not be appropriate to do in public. Although we couldn't report on it, it would give us a context for things we investigate in the future and would make us more able to report accurately.

I listened to all the testimony and listed some of the things here. Certainly this isn't exhaustive. The regime in Iran continues to ramp up their impunity with sham trials, trumped up drug charges, false reports of natural causes of death, torture, rushed secret executions, and the jailing of advocates and of course the lawyers of lawyers. It seems to me that as the people rise up with more spirit, they just address it in a way that's more tyrannical than before.

Of all the testimony I heard, I heard two things echoed. I just want to confirm with the witnesses that the most effective thing we can do is support those who document and report. Also, we should take the time to develop targeted sanctions that would specifically cripple the regime, or would at least work towards that end, yet would not be detrimental to the people of Iran, who are themselves the ones doing the job in the movement towards democracy.

I'll just leave that for any of the witnesses to comment upon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Maybe what we'll do, then, is go to Professor Jahanbegloo, who hasn't had a chance to comment yet.

[Dr. Ramin Jahanbegloo]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just wanted to add that, as my two colleagues in Washington and Ottawa have, I have also read the report done by the subcommittee and the report of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development very thoroughly and closely. I want to congratulate you on that.

I have two recommendations in relation to recommendations 8 and 24. In recommendation number 8, you mentioned that the subcommittee recommends that the Government of Canada deny entry to security agencies, revolutionary guards, and the Basij militia, of course. I would offer, as a suggestion, that it is better that Canada deny entry to those who are implicated mainly in political crimes and close collaboration with the Iranian regime. If I may, I would add, if I understand well, that there be in the recommendation a point to ask the Government of Canada to ensure protection for Iranian dissidents and refugees who are already in Canada, mainly Iranian Canadians.

As for recommendation 24, I would suggest only one thing, which I mentioned in my testimony. If eventually you have to help those who are engaged in non-violent actions and resistance in Iran, it would be a good idea to ask the subcommittee to recommend that the Government of Canada help with virtual training of non-violence for the Iranian resistance.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, we are right out of time. I apologize. Mr. Hiebert did have a question, but we're out of time.

This then gives me the opportunity to thank all three of our witnesses. We're very grateful for the testimony you've been able to provide.

Before I dismiss the committee, were you going to pursue anything, Mr. Silva?

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

There are some changes to the motion. I'll wait until the next meeting. I just wanted to say to the members that I did bring the motion forward at last week's meeting. I was hoping that members would have a chance to look at it so that there would hopefully be a debate at today's meeting. There were some changes to the language that were presented by the Bloc.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Let's let that wait, and perhaps members could discuss this particular motion, which is on a different subject, outside of committee time. And perhaps we could come to an agreement at the beginning of our next meeting, if in fact there is a consensus.

Thanks to everybody for giving the extra time to ask proper questions.

That being said, we are adjourned.