Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 22nd, 2011

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a lot of questions but I am going to try and choose the most important ones.

I did not understand you clearly when you talked about abortion. Could you go back to that topic?

[Rachel Gouin]

I talked about various forms of sexual violence that are used against women in wartime or in conflict or post-conflict situations. Forced pregnancies and forced abortions are forms of sexual violence against women.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You talked about your organization, Inter Pares, which is present over there. Can you tell us about its role and the activities it is involved in the field?

[Rachel Gouin]

As I pointed out in my presentation, one of the important roles of women's organizations is to bring about legislative change and legal reforms in order to ensure the rights of women. For instance, if they are raped, we would like women to have a legal recourse, to be perceived as credible witnesses, and not be accused of being unfaithful to their husbands and so on.

Thanks to CIDA funds, Inter Pares supports the Sudanese Organization for Research and Development, SORD. This organization has worked to bring about legislative reform. It has worked among other things on reforming criminal law, particularly provisions related to rape, and has worked on bringing about changes to laws that affect individuals, such as the age of consent for marriage and divorce. Within the context of Shari'ah, SORD is proposing changes that could lead to long-term reform so that we can see deeper change. For the moment, we are examining how we might bring about fairer legislation for women. Inter Pares supports the work of the SORD on these matters.

That said, not only does this work include legislative reform, but also public consultations and court attendance to see how judgments are rendered and how cases are treated. This also involves speaking with judges and lawyers, meeting religious leaders, discussing the proposed reforms, having discussions on Shari'ah to see how it is interpreted, and whether it is subject to interpretation. These discussions will also ensure that there is a significant support base in the population when these reforms are proposed.

In short, Inter Pares contributes to that work.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You are saying that currently this work is being done with the participation of citizens, men and women. How do these representations involve the government?

[Rachel Gouin]

In the month of December, in Khartoum, there was the very public case of a woman being flogged because of her clothing. A policeman felt that she was dressed indecently. Normally this is done in a court, and is somewhat hidden. This was very shocking. There was in fact a video of it on YouTube. Human rights militants in the Sudan, including Amnesty International, denounced that flogging.

Some women, among them members of the organizations we support, went before the Department of Justice with their proposals, their requests for legal reform and their demands. They asked to meet with government representatives to discuss that and asked that the people who did this be the object of legal action or be reprimanded in some way. All of these women were arrested. Finally they were released without having to pay a fine, but the message was clear.

A few days later, President al-Bashir spoke out on this. He said that Shari'ah law was going to be strictly applied, and that those who questioned his decision would do better to question their faith to ensure that they were true believers.

So, the stakes are high, but efforts are being made to communicate with elected representatives, with the government, basically. We are trying to set up a dialogue, but it is probably an attempt that falls on deaf ears, or meets with replies that are expected and predictable, but nevertheless shocking.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It is long-term work. The greater the pressures exerted on the Sudanese population by civil society from other countries, and by organizations such as yours, and the more this situation is visible to the international community, the more pressure will be placed upon the government.

Is the situation in the north and the south different?

[Rachel Gouin]

The situation is different. The situation of women in the south is also very grave. Women are working very hard to promote their rights and their participation in politics, etc. I am less familiar with the women who do this work in the south, but the northern women consider that their struggle is intimately linked to that of the southern women.

The modicum of freedom they have obtained since the signature of the peace agreement was obtained through these concessions. It was recognized that Sudan is a multicultural country and that people of all religions must be accepted. Concessions were made because of that and because of the belief that people are all together in this, that it is a diverse society. But with the departure of the south, what people are saying is changing and there is a risk that the rights granted to women in the north will be abolished.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have a more continental question. It has to do with what is happening currently in Africa. I am thinking among other things of the situation in Libya, Tunisia and Egypt. Are any effects being felt from the popular movement in those states, where the populations are demanding a certain freedom, democracy, and want to cast off the yoke of authority?

[Rachel Gouin]

There is no doubt that the influence of Egypt has been strong but al-Bashir nevertheless has some support in the population. We do not see the same momentum as we saw in Egypt. There have been demonstrations on a regular basis over the past few months, there was one yesterday in fact; once again there were arrests. So we see that the young people are very frustrated. Youth movements in the Sudan are starting to come out of the shadows a bit. That had begun during the elections. Groups of young people had begun to organize and to distribute flyers. They are trying to get involved in the political scene in Sudan and hoped to create a new country.

These groups are still active and are continuing to speak out in a very courageous way. During the elections or just before them, several young people spoke in public and a crowd gathered around them. All they were doing was talking about their desire for freedom, change, etc. When the police arrived, the crowd surrounded these young people and they managed to get out. Sometimes one would speak, then fade into the crowd, then someone else would take the podium. So young people are now being felt as a force. The current movement does not have the scope of the ones we have seen in other countries, but we see that they are expressing a desire for something better.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In your recommendations, you reiterate what was recommended to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. In fact, the most important recommendation that you mentioned, and that I noted, involves funding.

[Rachel Gouin]

Indeed, it concerned the funding of active groups. We should also keep an eye on women's organizations and their conditions because currently, it is dangerous for women to act. As you said, it is a long-term struggle.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Since I have a little time left, I would like to ask you another question.

Do you think the UNIFEM organization can make a contribution to this?

[Rachel Gouin]

I don't know it well enough. I know it is involved in the elections and in the referenda. It organized a conference while I was there in November, but I don't know the work of the UNIFEM group in the Sudan sufficiently to be able to comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston is next, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's a very disturbing topic when we think of what can happen to a woman.

I was in Saudi Arabia in 1979. It had sharia law. At that time, there was a man beheaded for raping a little boy, and several times hands were removed from people accused of theft. This was all done in public. I noted that in your testimony you seemed to indicate that the caning was done privately. In fact, at the time that I was in Saudi Arabia, there was a couple of Canadians who were caned something like 90 times in a public market.

You indicated that al-Bashir said sharia law was going to apply. Is that not constitutional? Do they not have it as their base of what they do?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

Yes--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Okay. It left me with the feeling that he had one and was trying to impose it.

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

There were two. Since the signing of the CPA, there were two functioning laws. If you were Muslim, sharia law applied, and if you weren't.... Women on the street could be questioned as to whether they were Christian or Muslim, and depending on how high your shirt went or how low on your hand it went, you could be fined--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes--

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

--or not, depending on whether you were a Christian or a Muslim. There was some weirdness. I mean, some--

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

In Saudi Arabia, Canadian women who went out were escorted. These people were spouses of Bell Canada workers. They would be taken out with a driver and they couldn't go anywhere without that male driver with them. Also, if they weren't totally buttoned up to the neck, they were accosted by the people. It wasn't the religious police or anything, and thankfully they never got to that stage, but even the people frowned on it.

I was curious about whether it is imbedded in their law or not, and obviously it is.

My understanding of the use of rape--and it seems to match your testimony--is that it's really effective when the public's view of what happens to that victim is that it's partially, if not completely, the victim's fault, and thus adultery. It troubles me to even say this, but in Canada we had a judge recently accuse a rape victim of encouraging it by her dress. When you can have that happen in a country as free as ours, you can imagine how these victims are really terrorized in the restrictive nature of the country they're in.

Has the current Government of Sudan taken any action at all to hold the perpetrators accountable? Do the victims have any way at all of getting any form of redress?

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

No. The immunity for the public officials and security officials is a huge barrier. Safiya has left northern Sudan. I think she's in southern Sudan right now.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Good.

[Dr. Rachel Gouin]

There has been no action on the government's part to bring to justice the people responsible for that or to say that it's wrong--nothing.