Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on April 22nd, 2010

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Do you know if the privileged relationship between Cuba and Venezuela is one of the concerns of the Department of Foreign Affairs? Would that explain in part the critical attitude that exists towards the Venezuelan regime?

[Alexandra Bugailiskis]

That is a very interesting question because we are currently celebrating 65 years of relations with Cuba. As I said earlier, we have had a rather good relationship with Cuba for a long time. There are, of course, going to be diverging opinions. We do not accept the situation of human rights in Cuba but, at the same time, we recognize that there have been some improvements in the fields of education and health in Cuba.

We'd like to recognize the real advances that Cuba has made in these sectors. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we're certainly seeing some degree of positive movement in Venezuela with regard to social improvements. We would like to see good relations among all countries in the region, and that's why we're a member of the Organization of American States. We'd like to see Cuba join the OAS and become a member of the full family. We are very actively engaged wherever there are conflicts in the region, and that includes engagement with the situation between Colombia and Ecuador. We're financing the good offices of the OAS.

In our view, relations between Cuba and Venezuela are not a problem.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Go ahead, Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you very much for being here today. Helping us start the study with an overview such as the one you're providing is very important to us, because there are always mythologies and different points of view out there with regard to Venezuela or Mr. Chávez.

I have a number of questions. First, there seems to be an obvious change from working in Africa. There seems to be a switch in priority towards South America. Is that real, or is it the imagination of some of the folks out there?

Next, you mentioned that doing business with the administration was a bit of a problem down there. Has that worsened since Mr. Chávez has come in, as opposed to historically?

The other thing I'd be curious about is how you see the internal human rights record of Venezuela over the last 30 years. We have heard commentary about the Jewish community; I'd like to know how large that community is and, in relative terms, how the government is treating its other citizens compared to that group. Are they marginalized to the degree that their safety is in jeopardy?

I'll stop there. There are a few things embedded in that.

[Alexandra Bugailiskis]

Perhaps I'll take the first part, Mr. Marston, and then leave the others to my colleagues.

With regard to the priority in the Americas, I think it was in 2007 that Prime Minister Stephen Harper decided that one of his key foreign policy priorities would be the renewal and strengthening of relations with the Americas. I've been very lucky to be part of that effort. It is new, I think, in the sense that our approach in the Americas, as we mentioned earlier, is through the three pillars or priorities of democracy, security, and prosperity.

One of my first posts was in Africa, so I always take umbrage when people feel that somehow this development has been on the backs of Africa. It has not. If you look at the record, the commitments this government made with regard to the G8 and the funding to Africa have been maintained.

In fact, with regard to engagement in the Americas, there hasn't been an enormous amount of money. I'm actually proud of that fact, because what we're trying to do is build sustainable linkages. These linkages, which may be through free trade agreements, air cooperation, or youth mobility, don't cost a lot of money, but they build very long-term sustaining relationships between Canada and the region. Obviously there has been some money through CIDA, and we've certainly increased our presence in Haiti with the development assistance we're giving to Haiti and to the Caribbean, but these additional moneys have come largely through the growth of the aid envelope, and not, I would say, at the expense of Africa.

I will give Mr. Marder the floor with regard to the second part of Mr. Marston's question.

[Jeffrey Marder]

There was a question on how our relations have changed, and it touched on an earlier question. I don't know if I have the capacity to comment on the evolution of Canada's relations with Venezuela over 30 years or even on Hugo Chávez, who has been president for over 10 years. That is almost as long as I've been in the Canadian foreign service, so I'm not well placed to give such a broad historic overview.

To come back to the matter of anti-Semitism and the treatment of the Jewish community, the Jewish community there is not large. I don't have the numbers at hand, but I'm guessing it's about 20,000. We can try to find the numbers for you. It's not one of the largest ones in Latin America, and it's about a 50-50 split between the Ashkenazi community and the Sephardic community.

There have been a number of anti-Semitic attacks recently. The most prominent one was anti-Semitic vandalism at the Maripérez synagogue last year. The government did not react immediately, but a couple of days after the incident the Minister of Foreign Affairs came to the synagogue to meet with members of the Jewish community. There may have been some accusations that the government itself has orchestrated this, but I've seen no evidence, and my understanding is that the government has undertaken an investigation and that an individual or individuals have been arrested for this attack.

As I said, we continue to monitor the situation and we are in extremely close contact with the Jewish community in Caracas.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Well, that leads to a question. I'm taking the inference that perhaps there's not necessarily a governmental agenda at work here, and that it's more at the individual level, as opposed to being systemic.

[Jeffrey Marder]

I think the fact that the government broke off diplomatic relations with Israel in the wake of Israel's incursion into Gaza gives a sense of its geopolitical stance. At the same time, the government, I think over the past year or so, has made efforts to indicate that its views towards Israel or towards the actions of the state of Israel are different from its views towards the Jewish community of Venezuela, which it very much sees as an integral part of the republic of Venezuela.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I would again take the inference that's actually a positive. We've been doing a study for a year on Iran and the implications there of the kind of rhetoric that comes out of the government as opposed to what happens to the individuals on the ground. I'm taking some heart from what you're telling us. I think we have to be careful, because since there is a high level of rhetoric towards Israel coming out of both of those governments, there's a tendency to look at it through only that lens when you're looking at a particular country.

In comparison, another part of the question was how you see the human rights situation of everyday Venezuelans as compared to that of the Jewish community. It sounds to me, from what I'm hearing, as though it's basically the same.

[Alexandra Bugailiskis]

Sorry, could you just repeat the last part?

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I was talking about the rhetoric about Israel and the treatment of the Jews in comparison to the treatment of the rest of the citizens of the country as far as human rights are concerned. It sounds to me as though it's pretty well the same. They're not getting extraordinarily bad treatment as compared to the treatment of other citizens there, but the government is really talking at a high level and focusing outward rather than inward.

[Alexandra Bugailiskis]

I would agree. I think you have identified, though, the possibility or the potential that when there is that degree of rhetoric against a certain government or a policy, it can be misinterpreted. There are those of you around the table here who may have misinterpreted that, and there could be those in Venezuela. I'm hearing that this sort of rhetoric tends to be misinterpreted and perhaps applied more directly. We're trying to say we don't think that's a government policy, but it can unfortunately be one of the outcomes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's what happened to Thomas Becket.

Sticking to the human rights issue, I come from the labour movement in Canada. In your remarks, I heard concerns about association. I presume you're referring to the unions' inability to meet and conduct their business. Is there a particularly negative relationship with the trade unionists in that country?

[Alexandra Bugailiskis]

I'm going to let Jeff search that one out.

I'll speak a bit more generally. I'll let Jeff look for more particulars on the actual unions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I just have to ask you to do that quickly to keep within our time limits.

[Alexandra Bugailiskis]

I'm going to address the issue with regard to restriction of freedoms. We're very concerned about media, and there does tend to be a focus on opposition media. There's a healthy debate in Venezuela. There's a degree of open press, but of late the elements--particularly administrative--within the media that have been targeted or closed down seem to have been almost solely within the opposition area. That very much concerns us.

I'm going to go to Jeff with regard to unions.

[Jeffrey Marder]

Just briefly, there are a couple of things. Nationalized companies in Venezuela no longer have independent unions, and there is labour organization in lines with specific...coming out of the ruling Socialist party. There are incidents of labour unrest. While it may not be front and centre in some of the things that Alex Bugailiskis mentioned in her opening statement, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, in its annual report of last year, did devote some space to the issue of problems faced by unions in Venezuela.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Is it Mr. Hiebert or Mr. Sweet?

Mr. Hiebert, go ahead, please.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you, and thank you both for being here. I really appreciated the brief overview you provided. I just want to dig a little bit deeper into the history of some of the issues their country is facing.

Can you provide some background as to how things have changed under Mr. Chávez? What was the situation maybe not 30 years ago but immediately prior to him and his--I think they're calling it the Bolivian revolution or the Bolivarian revolution? How have those policies affected human rights during the last decade?

[Alexandra Bugailiskis]

That's a very good question. I'm only pausing because it could take a good deal of time to answer it fully.

President Chávez was elected almost 11 years ago and re-elected several times, and in referendums he has a high degree of popularity. There is always perhaps a danger when you have that degree of popularity that you tend to concentrate power, and that seems to be the main trend line we've been seeing. I don't think we're in a position to say there has been any rupture of the actual constitution, but he's certainly managed to extend the presence of the executive throughout the country.

There are several examples, and, as we've said, it seems to be almost the targeting of opposition groups. This is particularly obvious with regard to the closure of media outlets that tend to be owned by the opposition or have opposition viewpoints. We've seen this with the unfortunate situation of an elected mayor in the city of Caracas. Mayor Ledezma was duly and democratically elected. He then found that his budget was suspended and in fact that another position had been put in place by the president, which took the municipal power away from him.

These are rather extreme measures, probably still within the framework of the constitution, but certainly starting to step over that line. These are the trend lines that very much concern us. It's the polarization of the society as well.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

What was the state of things prior to his election in 1998?

[Alexandra Bugailiskis]

Prior to the election, at least with regard to the public media, access to it was far greater. There certainly wasn't this tendency to target media stations. That has been a major change since President Chávez has come into power.

There have been changes on the other side as well, as I've mentioned. Obviously this is a government that focuses on social equality, and therefore he has taken some measures to try to reduce the inequality in a very unequal situation. There is no doubt about that.

Jeffrey, would you like to add a few points?

[Jeffrey Marder]

I would add just one thing coming from what Alexandra said. I think President Chávez has attempted to engage citizens in a better way than regimes prior to his did. That has certainly been the focus of his government: working with the poorer sectors of Venezuelan society, maybe trying to speak to a need that he didn't see answered by previous regimes.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

So you are saying he is popular as a result of the changes he has brought to the country, despite the fact that they abuse human rights.