Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Nov. 24th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

It's all about avoiding blame.

[Don Hutchinson]

I've just accepted blame, Mr. Chair.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Don Hutchinson]

The call, the mention on the ground, was a general human rights call rather than specifically identifying Christians. The deliberations of this committee I hope will inform the operations of the office of religious freedom when it's established. The collected wisdom of this room will hopefully reflect on Egypt as well and on the need for us, in bilateral and multilateral conversations, to engage in what are sometimes difficult conversations about human rights, including the right to religious freedom.

On the aid question, people who are in need should not go without because of the record of their government. However, there are opportunities to engage in conversations with governments about their human rights behaviour in relation to the provision and delivery of aid, and in the work that's done with aid organizations. Certainly those are opportunities that I think the Government of Canada could consider.

Also recommended in the report was to call upon the Government of Egypt--this is an ideal time, when they're forming a new constitution--to place a high priority on the rule of law, respect for religious freedom, and respect for international documents.

Currently in Egypt, any international documents that the government has acceded to, or has physically signed, are brought into Egypt with a provision in the current constitution that they will be complied with only insofar as they do not abrogate sharia law. The sharia law provisions often set aside significant components of the United Nations agreements that are signed or acceded to by Egypt.

There's also a continuing law from the 19th century that prohibits the building of new churches except in isolated circumstances. So essentially, the church buildings that are being destroyed and rebuilt in Egypt today, or being destroyed with the hope that they will be rebuilt, are buildings that in Canada would be considered historic landmarks.

Also, one thing that is key and missing from the history books in Egypt and the education of the nation is any reference to the Coptic history of the country. Egypt was a Christian-majority nation at one point in time, and it's a significant part of their heritage. Simply being aware of that might create a greater respect for the Coptic and the other Christian communities that exist in Egypt.

It's also vital to develop relationships with the local religious leaders who are on the ground. Canadian diplomats who do so do themselves and those on the ground a great favour, because they're more greatly informed as to what's taking place just outside their door.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I'm actually going to have to stop you at that point, because we've almost doubled the amount of time we allow for these things. But I suspect you'll be able to return to those points when answering some other questions.

We go now to Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You referred to a delegation that went to Iraq, and that would be One Free World International. I am aware of this because I was invited to go with that delegation. For a number of reasons I couldn't go, but at the time I was giving it serious consideration.

I sense from the way you characterized it...and maybe I misread you, which is why I want to give you the opportunity to clarify. Reverend El Shafie from that organization was before this committee. I must say that on the matters of fact that you put out there today about the situation in Egypt, his testimony was almost identical. He went through the dates and times and the various attacks that took place.

Was I misreading, or were there any problems you saw with that delegation going?

[Don Hutchinson]

There are conversations that take place with international governments through delegations from the World Evangelical Alliance, from representatives within the Religious Liberty Partnership. Those conversations are of an ongoing nature. There are also, I suspect, conversations that go on between the Canadian government and the Government of Iraq, which I also imagine are ongoing.

The question that was addressed was that this was not a delegation from the World Evangelical Alliance, nor the Religious Liberty Partnership, nor, to our knowledge, an official delegation from the Government of Canada. There's nothing to be read into that.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

No, I just wanted to clarify that, because the reverend gave very passionate testimony to this committee. If there had been a concern, I wanted to give you the opportunity to put it on the table. I'm glad to hear otherwise.

You mentioned the rebuilding of two churches in Cairo. When you gave your testimony, you also spoke about a crackdown from the military. Maybe I misunderstood, but did you say that the churches weren't completed, that they weren't rebuilt?

[Don Hutchinson]

Two churches in Cairo were rebuilt. It's the St. George church that has not yet been rebuilt.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's the third one, then.

[Don Hutchinson]

That's correct.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That brings me to ask the question that gives a kind of a sense that the military, in some small sense, was trying to be helpful; whether it was because they were culpable before or not, that's an entirely different thing.

We see the western newscasts of what's going on in Egypt right now, the people rallying one more time, and there are clearly problems with how the military has conducted itself overall. They literally took away Mubarak, who is the figurehead to some extent, but the same structure is in place.

Do you see that changing? We have elections that are supposed to take place, if they go ahead. Do you see the military stepping aside? And if that were to occur, what would be the potential impact on the Christian community? Even a semblance of support is better than none.

Further on that, some of the attacks, to my mind, sound almost like a vigilante group is doing it. You talked about how Muslims and Christians in some gatherings protect one another, which I'm pleased to hear. Would you say there's a small segment of people who are actually doing the damage as opposed to the Muslim community as a whole?

[Don Hutchinson]

The churches that were rebuilt by the military were rebuilt prior to October 9. What's been called the massacre at Maspero took place on October 9. There the military killed 27 Christians, with over 300 injured, in a peaceful assembly that was broken up using the full force of the government.

That has created a fear of the military that has escalated. Previously the military was regarded as continuing the standard of care, as it were, for Christians that had existed under the Mubarak government and up until that point in time. The issue of elections was resolved this morning by an agreement between the military and the Muslim Brotherhood. They've agreed to end the public displays by the Muslim community and to proceed with the elections next week.

What remains unclear is whether the full 498 seats of the Parliament will be up for election or whether it will be only 20% of them. The last statement released by the military was that they felt that there was a need to graduate the elections for the assembly to avoid one sect or another gaining control of the constitution on the first round of elections.

The confusion that reigns in that setting is difficult for us as Canadians to understand—the election will begin next Friday and it won't conclude until next March. It's during the time between next Friday and the end of March that there will be continued negotiations to decide how many of the parliamentary seats will be available.

The Muslim Brotherhood has through a network of alliances established candidates to run in 85% of those seats. They had said that they would run in only 40% of those seats so that they would not gain control of the Parliament. That's put the military in a difficult position. It's put the people of Egypt in a difficult position. When people go to vote, they are required to produce documents of citizenship that say whether they are a Christian or a Muslim or members of some other religion. So Christians are already fearful of voting.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That was indicated by the testimony here.

[Don Hutchinson]

They're not only fearful; they are concerned that showing up with documents identifying them as Christians may actually have them turned away, even if they have the courage to go to the voting booth.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Unfortunately, I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Sorry about that.

We'll go to Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Hutchinson.

What are the major factors contributing to the limited religious freedom for Christians, whether it's in Iraq, Iran, or Egypt? Could you please tell us?

[Don Hutchinson]

In many countries around the world, there are severe limitations on religious freedom. An organization called Open Doors, which is affiliated with us, produces an annual world watch list, as does the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom. The Open Doors list identifies the worst of the offending countries as being primarily those that are ideologically based. They have an ideological predisposition that is anti-religious. We can consider China to be one of those countries.

There are countries in which there are religious majorities, and the religious majority is engaged in the government of the state. There are Muslim-majority countries. There are Buddhist-majority countries in that category. The primary animus is an animus that opposes another religious community.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I see.

Is there a long-term history of persecution of Christians in these countries?

[Don Hutchinson]

Unfortunately, there is in some of them. In others there is not. However, it depends on when the ideological or governmental shift in leadership took place. What is clear is that today, the largest group of persecuted religious individuals on the planet are Christians. The estimates now are that between 200 million and 250 million Christians face persecution on a daily basis around the globe. Recent studies done by the Pew Forum and Penn State university indicate that approximately 170,000 Christians are killed annually, purely and simply because of their faith belief.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You mean that discrimination is institutionalized. Is that what you mean to say?

[Don Hutchinson]

In some instances, it is in fact institutionalized. I referenced the letter in regard to Sri Lanka earlier, since we've gotten broader than just the three countries.

In Sri Lanka, the government has intentionally chosen to recognize only the Roman Catholic church and a council of Protestant churches, which does not include the evangelical churches of Sri Lanka. The evangelical churches comprise about half the number of Protestants in the country. Therefore, there's a huge question. And for the first time ever, the Roman Catholic representative in Sri Lanka has indicated agreement with the government's decision.

Now, I understand that they would like to protect the Roman Catholic citizens in Sri Lanka from the type of persecution they have experienced. However, we'll be taking it up, as you might imagine, with the papal nuncio, and going to the Vatican. We just issued in June of this year a document entitled Christian Witness in a Multi-Religious World, which was jointly produced by the Vatican, the World Council of Churches, and the World Evangelical Alliance. It had very significant review before it was released publicly.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What can the Government of Canada and other governments and international bodies do better to identify and address the problems of discrimination against Christians in these countries?

[Don Hutchinson]

We have endorsed the concept of developing an office of religious freedom. We have made a full submission on what we would hope would be a robust office that would help inform the policies of Foreign Affairs and International Trade in establishing best practices for diplomats and for diplomatic engagement. Such an office, we hope, would help to inform the department so that in our bilateral and multilateral trade conversations, these human rights issues would be key.

We're hoping that it will also inform, as intended, Citizenship and Immigration Canada so that best practices and awareness of the religious situation in different nations will be something immigration officers, border service agents, and the Immigration Review Board are aware of and take into consideration in the screening process.

In United Nations camps, Canadians are often screening people who are seeking refugee status because of religious persecution. However, the people the government hires to do the screening in those camps are part of the majority community that is persecuting Christians. So the screening process may be unjust.

We've made a number of proposals in regard to the office of religious freedom.