Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 1st, 2011

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased to have you with us today, sir. Listening to your commentary, it is very clear, as Mr. Hiebert just indicated, that there's a death sentence over the heads of these folks. If we don't have a physical presence of some sort to protect them, I don't care how long we extend the date, they're at risk of being murdered.

I want us to start talking in very plain terms here, because I think that is the outcome. If you get an extension without protection, you're going to have Iraqis go in there and there will be a slaughter.

I want to go back for a moment. Like everybody else, it's a great concern that they haven't been delisted by the U.S. That is almost shocking to hear, sir, with the amount of intervention that's gone on.

I have a question. The MEK, in 1979, were part of the revolution. The fact they were Marxist-Leninists or Marxists and that feminists are involved, and that the revolution was more or less hijacked by the clerics, do you think to this day that's probably the reason Iran itself wants them eliminated even to this day.

[Michael B. Mukasey]

I cannot get into the minds of the mullahs. I know what they stand for today.

The MEK's leader is a woman who has an enormous amount of appeal. The very fact that she is a woman, I think, is an affront to them. She has articulated that what they want is a democratic, secular, non-nuclear Iran, with equal rights for women.

Every single one of those cuts directly against the central tenets of the current Iranian regime.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

In essence, I think in essence that would apply to the Iraqis as well. I think that is probably a reasonable guesstimate as to why the Iraqis are supporting Iran.

The other thing I was thinking of is that you may have a tribal connection between Iraq and Iran, through the Shiites, which might have a part to play in it.

[Michael B. Mukasey]

These folks are Shiites, too.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

The ones in the camp?

[Michael B. Mukasey]

Yes. They are Shia Muslims.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It sounds like we're back to politics. The risk that the Government of Iran sees is that if it had these people are connected back to Iran—especially if this woman is the dynamic leader you're talking about—they could be used to affect the regime in one way or another, or even to bring it down eventually.

[Michael B. Mukasey]

Correct, because that is their goal. Their goal is regime change. They're not at all bashful about saying so.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It strikes me as stranger still that the U.S. wouldn't have these people delisted. The case has been made in the courts, the case has been made in Congress, the case has been made across the aisles, as you indicated. It becomes even more baffling why the U.S. wouldn't do this.

Getting away from that for a moment, you've made a couple of suggestions on what could be done by Canada. Do you have any specific recommendations, beyond what you've already stated to this committee, on what we could be doing?

[Michael B. Mukasey]

It's difficult for me to make specific recommendations, because I am not as familiar perhaps as I should be with the various options open to you. I know Canada is a member in good standing in the same international organizations that the United States is. I would simply hope that Canada would be more active, candidly, than we have been in pressing the case in those organizations and using its influence.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Canada has good influence through the Commonwealth as well, and if Britain is on side...it just sounds like the only barrier to some action here is the U.S. itself.

[Michael B. Mukasey]

Correct. I don't know if it's the only barrier, but it's certainly a barrier. The Iraqis obviously present a more direct barrier, but that barrier could be cleared if others were cleared.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Has the administration in the U.S. been vocal on this at all?

[Michael B. Mukasey]

They've been very quiet. This issue has come up at the oversight hearings of the Secretary of State, and all she has said is that we're looking into the issue.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I think I've run out of questions, Mr. Chair. It's just astounding this situation.

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Sweet, you're next.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mukasey, for taking the time to brief us on what you know of the situation. I think I can speak for most of my colleagues that there's absolutely no positive feelings toward the Iranian regime and what they've perpetrated not only on their own people but also by exporting terror and many other things. We've heard from witnesses here at this committee regarding a fourfold threat that Iran poses to the world.

I want to ask a few questions to get some more background on this. The Iraqi government is giving a different picture on this, which you might guess.

How far is Camp Ashraf from the Iraq–Iranian border?

[Michael B. Mukasey]

It's my understanding that it's fairly close. I don't know the precise number of miles, but it's not all that far. As I understand it, it's in the Diyala province.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

From my understanding too, it's very close.

I wanted to ask—because you've mentioned some intelligence that you had access to—are you certain that all of this issue is because of Iranian manipulation of the Iraqi government, or is there some threat that you feel the Iraqi government feels as well, in this case posed by the Iranian regime?

[Michael B. Mukasey]

Obviously they feel a threat. Do the Iraqis feel a threat posed by the Iranian regime? I don't understand how they could not feel a threat, because they're right next door to them.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

The reason I asked that question is that it gets to some motivations on how we can resolve this issue. To me, it's would be a bit different if there were complicit interactions because of some history. I think you're aware of some evidence that the MEK also dealt with the Saddam Hussein regime. At least that's what the Iraqi government is saying now.

I guess what I'm saying is this. Do you think the motivation is due to that history they claim, or is it due to a clear and present danger from Iran?

[Michael B. Mukasey]

I think it's due to a clear and present danger from Iran. I think the history they had with Saddam Hussein is an excuse, an argument. They may very well have cooperated with Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran.

On the other hand, if your country was taken over by the kind of people who were running Iran, you might very well cooperate with pretty much whoever was trying to undo them.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

The point is taken.

You had mentioned about a year's extension. I guess with the situation of almost 4,000 people being that close to the border, we would be talking about some serious political will being required for a UN force strong enough to be able to maintain security there, in case there were some threat by Iran close by. I think the processing of that many people would take a good part of time, considering that we're already talking about issues with countries that have them listed as terrorists.

[Michael B. Mukasey]

The principal country that has them listed as terrorists is the United States. There may be one or two others who do it because the United States does it. Once that barrier were cleared, then it would be a great deal easier for them to move.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mukasey.

Nina, do you have any questions?