Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 6th, 2011

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Do you think they would, though? Because they don't have the mandate. They're in an emergency rule situation. Could the military actually legitimately claim to be representing the Egyptian people in bringing about these changes over whatever time period they have left?

[Alex Neve]

They absolutely have the power to do so.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

They have the power--

[Alex Neve]

The powers they have under their constitutional decree are far-reaching and in fact are wider than the powers that whoever eventually becomes Egypt's elected president would have. So they do certainly have the power to do all of this.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Does Amnesty monitor elections?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Hiebert, you're out of time. Sorry about that.

Mr. Andrews, please.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Apologies from Professor Cotler, who couldn't be here today. I'm filling in for him. He knows way more about this than I do, so please accept my apologies.

I have two questions that intrigued me during your presentation. First, at the very opening of your remarks you talked about the gentleman who's going back to jail--today, tomorrow...? You just briefly mentioned it in the beginning. Could you elaborate on that for me? Has Canada done everything it can to help this individual? Could you just explain it a little?

[Alex Neve]

I know that was a bit sly of me, because it was off topic. It's the same world region, but Bahrain, not Egypt; it's very much on our minds because his appeal is to be heard tomorrow. So there's the timeliness of it and the fact that it's the same region, and some of the same issues about democracy and that sort of cry for change in the Middle East are obviously what this is all about.

He is a Canadian citizen. He was arrested in Bahrain in March on accusations that he had participated in that country's democratic protests. He was held for a month, during which he was very badly tortured, and there are medical reports that confirm that. He later, through a profoundly unfair trial, was sentenced to a five-year prison term. He does have an appeal pending, which is supposed to be heard tomorrow. There's not a lot of hope that the appeal is going to turn things around; we can obviously keep our fingers crossed that this will be the case. But tomorrow is obviously a crucial day for him there, for if the appeal is unsuccessful, there's a very good chance that he could be taken right back into custody.

We have been raising the case frequently with the government, with Minister of State Ablonczy, who's responsible for consular affairs, of course, and we have welcomed the many ways in which Canada has clearly been providing a lot of consular support to Mr. al-Raas. We've been disappointed that we've not been able to get clarity that the government has clearly gone on the record with the Bahraini government in opposing the charges and demanding that he be freed.

That's what we're looking for: not simply watching and monitoring the case, but making it very clear to the Bahraini government that this is a violation of international human rights standards to send anyone to prison simply because they peacefully protested, and that this has to come to an end.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

In your testimony you talked about the number of people who were killed for freedom of religion. My question is, and the analysts have put this together, do you actually believe that the right to freedom of religion will ever be there under the post-Mubarak era? Is it possible? What are the obstacles that might prevent this from happening, and how can Canada help? How tough is that really going to be?

[Alex Neve]

We wouldn't pretend it's easy. Is it possible? Yes, of course, it's possible. Anything's possible if the will is there. Are there formidable changes that need to happen? Yes.

I've touched on some of the changes. Some of them are law reform issues that need to be dealt with and dealt with urgently, both in terms of removing some discriminatory provisions that exist in Egyptian law, and also in terms of strengthening protective measures. We also need to see a move towards finally in Egypt a commitment to ending impunity for human rights violations. That very much arises in this area of attacks against religious minorities such as the Copts, but more generally as well—the fact that people can carry out the kinds of attacks that I've enumerated in my presentation and you've heard about from others, against religious communities, and then pay absolutely no price. So that's a rule of law and justice reform agenda that needs to be key here as well.

But more fundamentally, obviously, cultural change needs to happen. That's long term. It's important, and Canada should absolutely be looking for ways to support that kind of change as well, not just the quick and immediate law reform and other kinds of changes that are so necessary in the short term, but that longer term agenda as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That wraps up that round. Thank you.

Our final questioner will be Ms. Grewal and then we'll go in camera. Ms. Grewal, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Neve.

Mr. Neve, do you believe that the violence and discrimination against the Coptic Christians in Egypt have intensified since the fall of the Mubarak regime? Could you please tell us something about that?

[Alex Neve]

Yes. It's always difficult to conclusively measure human rights violations. We're asked to do so all the time. Is it better in this country than it was last year? Is it worse here or worse there? At the end of the day, it's impossible to do so. We have, however, signalled that over these last ten months it certainly does appear that we've witnessed a deterioration in the situation for Coptic Christians, not to suggest that things had been good, obviously, before the fall of Mubarak.

Certainly we've pointed to the fact that there has been an upsurge in attacks and violence, and that there have been many more attacks, as I said in my remarks, during that ten-month period than there were in the decades previous to that. That's not to suggest that one is better than the other. We don't want to privilege the experience of some victims over others, but it has been a very difficult and worrying time, and it has been accompanied by a complete failure to start to see the kind of turn-around that is necessary to improve things. In other words, we're not seeing security forces start to demonstrate greater willingness to get in there and provide protection. We're not yet seeing some of the law reform steps that are so necessary. We aren't yet seeing a change and ensuring that Coptic Christians more regularly take up high positions within government to end exclusions and discrimination in that respect as well.

So it has been a very worrying time.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What can Canada do to encourage and require Egypt to respect and protect the rights of its Coptic minority?

[Alex Neve]

I think some of the suggestions I've raised as to the kinds of law reform steps that need to be taken should be prominent in Canada's dealings with Egypt. I think there are some very concrete individual cases and individual situations that can be raised--for example, demanding that there be an independent investigation into the Maspero Square violence in October, and freeing of the blogger, an activist who has been detained because he raised concerns about what happened in Maspero Square.

But more widely, I think what is so crucial is that Canada get behind a very strong human rights agenda, along the lines of what we've proposed to the Egyptian government, and make that the centrepiece of our dealings with the Egyptian government and be working with other countries to really ensure that it becomes the mantra of the international community in the years to come.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What is the role of the Egyptian security forces with respect to discrimination and violence against the Copt community? What is its role?

[Alex Neve]

I think there have been times when concerns have been raised that there may be some officers who played a direct role in some of the violence. Obviously we've pointed to concerns that security officials were responsible for violence in Maspero Square. I've highlighted the concerns about them having reportedly driven their armoured vehicles at high speeds right through Coptic protesters. That's one level.

I think the wider and long-standing concern, though, has been that security forces in Egypt have simply not done enough, and in some instances they have done virtually nothing to provide protection to Coptic communities in the face of violence. They have abandoned them to sectarian violence when in fact they have a binding legal responsibility to intervene to ensure protection.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

No, actually you have three seconds.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Neve. I appreciate, as I always do, and as we all do, your presence and your insight, and in this particular case as well the very useful context you've provided both in your oral testimony and your written submission. We very much appreciate it. Thank you for coming here.

[Alex Neve]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We have to move in camera, colleagues, and we have to be quick about it. I think we'll go directly in camera and start our session.

This is not a high-security thing, so if Mr. Neve hasn't left the room yet the world won't cave in while we're going in camera. So let's do that.

[Proceedings continue in camera]