Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 8th, 2011

Evidence of meeting #14 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ashraf.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Situation in Camp Ashraf

Committee Business

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Colonel Retired) Wesley Martin (Colonel (retired), United States Army, As an Individual

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

That was mainly meant to restrain our members, not to restrain you, Colonel.

1:55 p.m.

Col Wesley Martin

I take total guilt, because I keep going on.

Moqtada al-Sadr informed his followers that Saddam would not live to see the light of a new year. He informed Maliki, “I want Saddam turned over to me tomorrow morning.” Maliki contacted the commanding general of Task Force 134, who asked him, “Why do you want him tomorrow? We already plan to execute him on the 10th of January.” “I want him tomorrow.” “Why? Show me how you have this set up in an organized manner.” “I want him tomorrow.” The Task Force 134 detention operations commander pushed back: “No. This is going to be a fiasco.” Our State Department weighed in, influenced his military leadership, and told him directly, “You will turn him over.” The commanding general then had no choice. He turned him over, and you remember the fiasco that became. The State Department immediately backed up, and let the commanding general take all the blame. Not one person in the State Department stepped forward and said “We were the ones who ordered it to happen.”

I see an identical situation happening with Camp Ashraf, as that country is going further down. With the exception of Kurdistan, which is actually becoming very productive—they have malls there, they're developing bridges, they're developing businesses—Iraq is going severely down further and further every day. Demonstrations in Tahrir Square are being brutally suppressed, and it just keeps on going. The people themselves, even the Shias in Najaf, Nasriye, and Basrah, are now saying it was actually better under Saddam.

2 p.m.

Conservative

Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Any time left?

2 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

No, I'm afraid not. We have to go to our next questioner.

Mr. Chisholm.

2 p.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Colonel. I certainly found your testimony very interesting.

Getting to the question of what gets done and doesn't get done in time, you've indicated that the concerns expressed seem to be falling on deaf ears in the United States. Would you give me some indication of what the options are if the U.S. is not going to listen and not going to act? Is there any opportunity of the UN being able to intervene, and is there anything that Canada can do to try to force this question?

2 p.m.

Col Wesley Martin

With the UN, there is. Tom Ridge has said it probably more than anybody else: we need to get blue helmets on the ground. I am more than willing to go with that operation.

As I mentioned, we need to get the UN even more engaged in trying to protect the people that UNHCR is trying to move. We need to break down Maliki's artificial walls on cooperating with him, which he hasn't done.

I've talked personally with Maryam Rajavi with this, and Italy has accepted some of the MeK members. If Canada would be willing to accept MeK members, to include, and I know you would include, some Canadian citizens in the MeK.... I remember one young lady over there, her name I've long forgotten, who was a Canadian citizen, as was her brother. Her brother came back home. If they would accept some of the members and do what can be done to make it clear and help push back the 31 December deadline.... Although as I've mentioned, I don't trust Maliki unless he's put under great pressure to even honour that deadline, let alone push it back.

I know you're out of the cycle of revising your terrorist list, but I would greatly encourage removing the MeK from the terrorist list in Canada. That would help. It could be used to say to the United States: the United Kingdom and the European Union have said they're not terrorists, and now your ally to the north has stated they're not terrorists. It would help force the issue.

2 p.m.

NDP

Robert Chisholm NDP Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

You talked about the deadline of December 31, but are we not in fact looking at a deadline much closer than that if Obama's going to have a meeting on the 15th and given what happened in 2009 and 2011?

2 p.m.

Col Wesley Martin

Yes, sir, you're right.

When I was the anti-terrorism officer of Iraq, I used to have to sometimes examine the facts, look at the history as you've just pointed out, and also make some gut-feeling calls.

One day General Sanchez stopped me outside the office and asked, “What's going on?” I said, “Sir, Diwaniya is next”, and sure enough, they got hit. Then we went over what I was doing was to help try to do defences down there.

My gut feeling, based upon everything I am looking at, is Maliki is going to move before December 31 and close to December 15.

As pointed out here, and as Sheila Jackson pointed out yesterday, to make it clear that you will get to meet the President.... Also, by the way, this meeting that Joe Biden had over there, and then Joe Biden comes back and says great things, and he also says the Iranian influence is greatly exaggerated—no, it's not. It's underestimated.

If I may close, one of the greatest humanitarian warriors is no stranger to any of you. He wrote a very special piece in a letter. I think everybody has seen this, but if you don't mind, I can read it:

The threat to the residents of Camp Ashraf is real and it is imminent. Within over a month, these 3,400 unarmed citizens will face a potentially mortal crisis--unless the international community fulfills its own moral and legal obligations. The humanitarian crisis is avoidable and must be avoided at all costs.