Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 12th, 2011

[Denis Tougas]

Very briefly, after attending the elections, visiting the places and reading the reports that the observer groups were starting to prepare, I saw that, after the results were disclosed last Friday, the electoral commission was unable to assure the population or the international community. They will not be able to respond to the implausible number of complaints and allegations of fraud that will be heard.

That will pose a problem for the international community. How will Canada and the international community conduct themselves with this new government? Kabila won his election beyond any doubt; he had all the resources, compared to his opponents, who had very little. He did so by legal means and illegal means, which I believe he used extensively.

However, we see that, in the presidential election, he will be elected president without winning a 50% majority. That's only the first stage. In January, we'll get the results of the legislative elections, the election of the people who will form the Parliament. We have reason to fear that there will be slightly more friction and violence than there is now since that will affect people locally and regionally.

I'll stop there.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Yes, because I unfortunately have only a few minutes.

This issue is extremely complex.

Ms. Vaugrante, can you tell me about the links between sexual violence and the mining industry?

[Béatrice Vaugrante]

It happens mainly in North and South Kivu, where there are a lot of resources. And it's quite deplorable to see that the DRC has such a low level of development when it has such incredible resources.

The many armed groups, such as the Mayi-Mayi and the former CNDP, which are in those regions own and operate a number of small and large mines in the region. They must therefore have access to those mines and to airports so that they can transport the ore. They have to be able to control those mines. So there are often wars and important economic issues concerning the wealth of the chiefs to control these regions and operate the mines. Nothing must disrupt that situation. If it is enough to say that a given area belongs to them and to rape 300 women in a region to consolidate their power and control, they'll do that. It's a monstrous and radical way for certain individuals to affirm that they are the chief and that all that belongs to them.

[Denis Tougas]

I'll add a few words. There is no connection between sexual violence and the mining industry and industrialists on the ground. In eastern Congo, for example, there is a large mining company called Banro. To date, no connection has ever been made between Banro and sexual violence.

As my colleague said, it mainly happens when two groups are competing to conquer an area. Unfortunately, I must say there is an ethnic factor. That is what enables people to rape an 80-year-old woman. We don't understand that, but we explain it by saying that someone will do it only to people of another ethnic group, another community.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

All right.

I would like to ask a brief final question.

Some time ago, I saw a report that mentioned that UN peacekeeping troops were committing acts of sexual violence. Those troops were supposed to be prosecuted. If I remember correctly, some of them were French.

Are any incidents of sexual violence being committed by UN troops?

[Béatrice Vaugrante]

Amnesty International has not documented the sexual violence. With our usual research methods, we haven't documented any sexual violence committed by UN troops. I believe we saw the same report. We also heard about that in Haiti and elsewhere, where UN troops are sent. This isn't the first time.

For the moment, you have to consider the scope and length of the work being done by people in the DRC. It's like the rape of children, or boys and men. Unfortunately, the same attention has not been paid to that as a result of a lack of resources, but it should be possible to document those cases as well. However, I have no more information to give you today.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Ms. Péclet, please, you have the floor.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much for being with us today.

I have a number of questions to ask you, mainly concerning available resources and the Canadian projects we discussed.

Mr. Tougas, you said that the solution was in the hands of the Congolese government, which should be addressing the problem directly with the aid of the international community. You also discussed the challenge to the election results. A president was indeed elected, but his opponent declared himself president, saying that there had been fraud during the elections. There was talk of corruption.

As regards the financial resources that are given to the government, we have no guarantee that that money will necessarily be distributed to the organizations on the ground. A number of representatives of organizations who testified before this committee said that they were somewhat dissatisfied with the situation because their needs were not being met as a result of the bureaucracy, corruption or other factors.

Could you provide us with more details on that point?

[Denis Tougas]

That question is important and quite easy to answer. The Canadian government doesn't give any money to the Congolese government regarding sexual violence. The purpose of the vast majority of known projects is to provide care through the international agencies of the UN, three in particular: the UN Population Fund (UNFPA); the bureau of MONUSCO, the United Nations Organization Stabilization Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, which deals with human rights issues; and UNICEF. So Canada's money will be spent through those three agencies.

The process of supplying medication and medical care is going very well. The UN agencies are used to that type of intervention.

The fight against impunity is not going well at all. On the one hand, the three agencies are unbelievably bureaucratic, especially when they work amongst themselves. On the other hand, as regards impunity or actively anticipating or combating that system, the UN agencies are totally at a loss and will not pursue that type of argument.

That's why I say that the next Canadian program should involve the right players, those who can take responsibility and who will provide that care, make that argument and conduct the fight against impunity to the end so that the work will continue once the agencies have left and the international funds are spent.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

For example, that could be done through training or by providing women with legal aid, because you said that was quite costly. Women often wind up in the justice system without a lawyer. That would be made possible through training for judges because it was said that there were no judges, army personnel or protection in the countryside. So women don't have access to the justice system.

What kind of aid could they receive: training, legal aid or something else?

[Béatrice Vaugrante]

First of all, I believe that a cooperative approach to international aid is absolutely necessary before anything else. Canada must not be all alone: all international players must be involved. If no comprehensive strategy provides us with the power to negotiate and put pressure on the DRC government, the effort will be disjointed and will not work.

Throughout the process, training can help, but as we at Amnesty International are asking, the victims must first be protected. Until they are protected, they won't dare file complaints. The victims have to be protected, as well as the defenders who protect those victims. So the local organizations must be helped. Magistrates and judges must also be trained so that they can become independent. The laws must be reformed. In a military tribunal, a judge cannot try an individual whose rank is higher than his own. So people are obviously appointed generals just before a trial, and so it is impossible to try them.

The laws must be reformed and more power must be given to civilian authorities. You need numbers in order to secure that power in the DRC. Prisons have to be built, centres where living conditions are decent, but from which no one can escape. Lastly and above all, there is restitution for the victims. When the Congolese government is responsible for a woman, for example, who has to feed a number of children, who needs those resources and for whom those resources are vital for her reintegration, the compensation has to be tangible and must come in the form of money paid to her as reparations.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Does the Congolese government have the necessary resources without the aid of the international community?

[Béatrice Vaugrante]

It will be possible if the international community agrees and combines its efforts. It is true that it will require a lot of human and material resources. However, the international community must develop a long-term overall strategy. In that way, it will really be possible to change the Congolese justice system.

[Denis Tougas]

Studies conducted at the international level have shown that the Congo is currently lacking 2,000 judges and magistrates. However, even when the government recently appointed some—I believe it appointed 1,000 judges—they did not go to the area. They didn't have the resources to do so and were not paid on site. Most of them remained in Kinshasa.

Congo nevertheless has really extensive resources, a portion of which does not appear in the government budget. If there were a willingness to take action in this area, this kind of intervention would be possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I spoke to you earlier about how we have a gap in testimony. It has been identified within the context of coming back from the researchers, and it strikes me that our two guests testifying today might be able to fill it in if they could send us some information following this meeting.

It's the part about.... We haven't had a really comprehensive overview of the armed groups in this country, and the history and geography, so that we have an understanding of.... It was mentioned that it was tribal in some places, and that where the mines were, you had conflicting groups.

Would it be asking too much to ask if you would submit to us--through the chair, of course--a general outline of the flow of the conflict and the different participants? It would put it into context.

[Denis Tougas]

Resources are currently available. A specialized group has done some chronological mapping of the violent incidents and mining resources in North and South Kivu. It would be quite easy to provide you with the web link. A number of investigations have been conducted on that subject. We could send them to you.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That would be wonderful.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Thanks to the witnesses.

We have one point left to cover in camera.

I'll excuse the witnesses. Thank you very much.

I'll ask everybody to stand by while we go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]