Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Dec. 13th, 2011

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Does the presence of this organization in Iraq threaten the internal security of Iraq?

[Barbara Martin]

I would suggest that the nature of the activity at Camp Ashraf.... They live on the camp; it's a community in a camp. What do they do beyond that? Do they enter or exit...? I am simply actually not in a position to say. Iraq seems to think that they do present a threat to them, as well as to regional security, and I think we need to trust them—it is their country.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Iraq contends that allowing Camp Ashraf to remain is effectively interfering in the internal affairs of a neighbouring country. Would you agree with that?

[Barbara Martin]

I'm not in a position to comment on what activities Iran might be engaged in inside Iraq.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Here is my next question. Since Iraq took responsibility for camp security from the Americans in 2009, there have been reports of violent confrontations and ill treatment by Iraqi security forces against residents of the camp. Is there any truth behind these allegations?

[Barbara Martin]

I'm not able.... It would take a judicial process to determine the truth behind the allegations, and I simply am not in a position to do that.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I see.

It has been suggested that some residents of the camp have been forced to remain there against their will by the members of the People's Mujahedin e-Khalq Organization. Are you aware of any evidence to back up this claim?

[Barbara Martin]

We've heard similar rumours, but I don't have evidence to that effect. Certainly with respect to those Canadian citizens who were resident in the camp, the Government of Canada had offered consular assistance to them over an extended period of time. The first time they chose to take advantage of that was in June, and there did not seem to be any problem with their decision to leave the camp at that time.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

In your opinion, what can be done about Camp Ashraf and its residents? Are its residents in imminent danger? If so, what can the international community do about it to help these people in their urgent need?

[Barbara Martin]

I think there is a series of things we are doing, which is continuing to draw attention to the need for the Government of Iraq to respect its responsibilities under international law. In particular, we make these démarches with the Government of Iraq and its officials, supporting the UN engagement there, ensuring that they are able to monitor the ongoing situation in the camp, and supporting the work of the UNHCR in assessing the individuals for refugee resettlement as well.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Is there anything you would like to say, Mr. MacDonald?

[Michael MacDonald]

No. I'm fine.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do I still have some time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You do.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll pass on my time to Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I've exhausted my questions, but certainly if any of the opposition have extra questions that they'd like to capitalize on....

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston, you have, but would you mind if I ask something first?

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

No. Go right ahead, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Mr. MacDonald, you mentioned that there are a number of ways of getting off the registration list and that a group can approach a country to request that it be removed from the list. They can approach us.

We haven't been approached by the MeK. Have we made any effort to inform them of the fact that they can approach us?

[Michael MacDonald]

I'll answer that in a couple of parts. There are actually four ways an entity can be delisted from the Criminal Code list. Three of them are spelled out in the actual Criminal Code.

The first way to be delisted is through the statutory requirement for a two-year review. In the case of the MeK, they were listed in 2005. They went to the 2006, 2008, and 2010 two-year reviews. Now they are obviously up, should they remain on the list, for the 2012 review. There's a statutory requirement with a decision by the Governor in Council.

Next is the one you mentioned, Mr. Reid, which is on application.

Another way would be on an application that is rejected, meaning the entity could move to a judicial review. Under that the court could order, having gone through a process, that the entity be delisted or the court could agree with the decision for it to remain listed.

Of course, there is always the flexibility in our system for a proactive decision by the Governor in Council to delist an entity outside of those other three mechanisms.

Now, on the question of what is or is not public, all these processes are public. The Criminal Code is available. And, no, I'm not aware of any government official reaching out to an entity to tell them or to inform them of this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

All right. That answers my question.

Mr. Marston, go ahead, please.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to one of the points that I think Mr. MacDonald made, I think spending a lot of time on listing or delisting isn't really helpful in the situation we're in today. Several people who have come before us have said that Mr. Maliki is prepared to murder these people. I'm going to put it in the bluntest of possible terms.

Mr. Cotler just gave a listing of the EU's views and compared those to what we heard about the judicial process—which is, in my opinion, being minimized—about how they were delisted.

Ms. Martin, I was astounded—and I may have heard you wrong, and I want to come back to you to give you the chance to correct me if I am wrong. It seemed to me that in your testimony somehow you said that stone throwing was some kind of justification for armed people murdering people in that camp. I certainly want to give you a chance to correct that, because I may have misunderstood you. I want to give you every opportunity on that, in case someone else might have as well.

[Barbara Martin]

No, I simply said there needs to be an investigation. There are always multiple sides to any story. I have said several times in my testimony that what I witnessed on the video, what occurred, was shocking and appalling. There is no question. There is a perspective from the Iraqi government that needs to be investigated, and what exactly happened needs to be determined.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'm glad I gave you that opportunity, because it did sound that way to me. I didn't think it was possible, but I wanted to be sure.

I think it was in somebody's testimony here—it may have been in Colonel Martin's, but it has kind of all run together in my mind at this point—that most of the original leadership of the MeK has been executed. Is there any evidence that amongst the people in this camp there are some who were directly involved with international terrorism in any way? Can we name somebody? That inconsistency in the Americans offering them protected persons...if that were the case, it strikes me as very—

[Barbara Martin]

It's misleading. Regardless of what someone has done, they were offered protected person status, because that was the legal obligation they had.