Evidence of meeting #17 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was attack.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Are you in agreement with him that there's imminent danger of a full-scale attack in Ashraf?
As an Individual
Definitely. There's no doubt about it.
What's ironic or funny is that the United Nations and the U.S. forces received written promises from the Iraqi government before both attacks, particularly the last attack. The United States forces were near Ashraf, and they were ordered to step out. They saw the increase of Iraqi forces coming in. The UN told us that something would happen, so we told them not to leave because they were going to attack.
Based on what I went through and what I saw—definitely, I can promise you.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
If it's done peaceably, are the residents willing to be relocated?
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Inside Iraq, or any option the United Nations would be able to offer.
As an Individual
Residents of Camp Ashraf are willing to be relocated to another country—for example, a country in the European Union, the United States, Canada, or anywhere—if it could be done under the UNHCR.
But the thing is that they don't want to be, and won't accept to be, relocated somewhere inside Iraq without UN blue helmet protection or United States protection. Because who is going to promise that the Iraqi government is not going to attack again?
When we were there and the Iraqi government gave promises to Britain, the United States, and the United Nations, this is what they did. They killed eight women, 36 people. They're going to be away from the international spotlight and away from any form of security, so they will have an open hand to kill and to just annihilate the people.
Yes, the people of Ashraf accepted Mr. Stevenson's resolution to relocate the people to different countries. They're willing to do it under the conditions that the UNHCR does the question-and-answer and investigates the people, and the camp has security during this time.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I'll give the rest of my time to Mr. Lunney.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Okay, thanks very much.
I'll just ask two quick questions, because the time is so short. And thank you for the opportunity.
Concerning the attack on April 8, 2011, as you mentioned, 36 people were killed—eight women—and 350 people wounded. Briefly, could you explain the circumstances that led up to that? How and why would Iraqi forces attack the camp under these circumstances? Could you briefly address that?
The second question is about the loudspeakers installed around the camp. You mentioned an Iranian agency. Presumably these messages are in Farsi, are they? Can you just explain to us how and when those speakers were installed, and how you understand the Iraqi cooperation with the Iranian forces to do that?
As an Individual
On your first question, about the attack, they said they wanted to take the northern part of the camp. In the northern part of the camp there was our cemetery, a living area where people lived, and other small buildings. When the Iraqi government decided they wanted to take the northern part of the camp, Ashraf said we were willing to give them the land. We had no problem. We were willing to offer this to the United Nations and to let the United Nations deal with it.
But the thing is, why the killing? Why? Why did they have to storm with tanks? Why did they have to target us? I was targeted at less than five metres.
Conservative
James Lunney Conservative Nanaimo—Alberni, BC
Thank you for that.
Could you briefly address the second question?
As an Individual
Yes. About the loudspeakers, the reason I say it's from agents of the Iranian regime's intelligence ministry is because they are agents. They speak in Farsi. They threaten to kill; they threaten to hang us; they threaten to cut out our tongues. They degrade the women; they say things, for example, like “We'll come at night and get you”. This is in Farsi.
Why I say it was with the help of the Iraqi forces is that we have videos. We see that they helped install the things. They came with Iraqi forces to install these loudspeakers.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
That's all the time we have for that round.
Does it look like the video is working now? It does? Okay, let's give it a try and then we'll go to Mr. Marston.
[Video Presentation]
As an Individual
This is Shahnaz, the one I told you about, who needed oxygen, and this is the mother of two who was shot.
Conservative
Conservative
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
After watching that, it's difficult to find a place to start.
I want to commend you for your courage in speaking out and bringing before us such a personal thing. Most of us who are in hospitals for a variety of reasons, be it car accidents or whatever, don't have to share that experience with the world like you have.
It helps to put a real face to some of the things. Sitting in a committee of this nature, there's a tendency to think of it as being “over there someplace”, so I really appreciate you bringing it here and bringing our attention to this.
I'll ask you a couple of questions.
How long was the camp under U.S. direct command? Also, you saw Colonel Martin's testimony. He described his relationship with the people there. How would you describe the relationship between that camp population and Colonel Martin?
As an Individual
To answer your first question, U.S. forces were there from 2003 until 2009, until the transfer of security.
On your second question, about Colonel Martin and our relationship with U.S. forces, we had no problems. I mean, we didn't lack anything. We had food and medical aid and they came to visit the camp openly any time they wanted to.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
The reason for my question is that Colonel Martin gave what I would describe as glowing testimony of the relationship between the camp people and his troops and himself. In fact, at times he called you among his best allies. I thought it was important to validate some of his testimony here from the perspective of the camp, so I certainly appreciate that.
We have spoken in this committee and there has been testimony about there being a responsibility to protect. There are all kinds of issues that can be raised about the history of the people who are in the camp. Irrespective of that history, it's very clear from the testimony we've heard, your testimony today, and the evidence of the attack on yourself and others, that the potential is definitely there for the people of this camp either to be murdered in one swoop or to be divided among those in the country, and I can understand your fears.
One of the things in the testimony and something you've alluded to is the relationship between the Iraqi government and the Iranian government. We know from experience that the Iranian secret police and others have been effective around the world in a number of situations, not just this one, but it did strike me today that your testimony is that they're right there in part of the camp. That I hadn't heard; I don't believe we've had testimony to that effect.
On the relationship between those two regimes, is it fundamentalism that's doing it? Is it a relationship that has tribal connections, like Shiite, Sunni, or whatever? How would you describe that relationship?
As an Individual
First of all, I'm sure you know the Iranian regime wants to take over and have an Islamic empire. That's why it's really interested in Iraq.
You asked about Iranians in the camp. I just wanted to tell you something. When I arrived at the scene about 7:30 there were Iraqi soldiers who were dressed in black who would speak in Farsi. I went up to one of them and I said, “What are you doing? What do you want? Do you want to come in the camp? Okay, just come in, but why the gun?” He said, “Long live Iranian Ayatollah Ahmadinejad”. This is perfect--understanding that they're affiliated with the Iranian regime.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
It seems clear that's the case.
During that attack--and you say there were Iranian military people, you're assuming, or that they were dressed in black and not in uniform--did they appear in any way to be directing that attack?
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
So your feeling was that the attackers were under the control of these people.
As an Individual
Yes.
I don't know if you've seen it, but there was one Iraqi colonel who shot a large number of the people that day. He was one of the main people who were there who were pointing at people and saying “Look over there” and shooting.