Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 9th, 2012

[Alex Neve]

Obviously, even if sort of magically sometime this year the Human Rights Council were to decide to appoint a special rapporteur in Eritrea, I think at least at this point in time we can safely imagine that Eritrea wouldn't let that individual have access to the country. That wouldn't be the first time a country has refused to allow a country-specific special rapporteur in, but at least it would be a first step in the UN human rights machinery starting to demonstrate some greater concern and focus on what's happening in Eritrea.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

We now go to Ms. Grewal, and then we'll finish with Monsieur Ravignat.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Neve, for your presentation.

All of us know that the United Nations has imposed sanctions on Eritrea. Could you please tell us what effects have the UN sanctions had on Eritrea's armed conflict?

[Alex Neve]

There is an arms embargo in place, but clearly Eritrea continues to be a very heavily militarized country with a well-armed armed forces. I don't have research to share with you to illustrate where those arms are coming from.

Unfortunately, we know we live in a world where countries regularly violate the terms of UN arms embargoes. In fact, just before joining you today, I was across the street at the CBC studio talking about Amnesty International's new report today showing the ways that China, Russia, and Belarus have been blatantly violating the UN arms embargoes with respect to Darfur, which isn't too far away.

I'm not suggesting that Russia, China, and Belarus are responsible for arms transfers into Eritrea. They often are at the top of the list, though, when it comes to countries that show disregard for UN arms embargoes. Clearly, it's a serious concern, and clearly that's yet another piece of how the international action to deal with the crisis in Eritrea is not having the effect it should.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That's all, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That's it?

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We go now to Monsieur Ravignat.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

I was worried about the human rights situation in this country before, and after your report I'm even more worried. Thank you for that very informative presentation.

The question that has long plagued me is why is it that there is an uneven defence of human rights internationally by our government, but also by other governments? You would think there'd be a relationship between the level of blatant disregard for human rights and the level of effort the Canadian government would make in order to put pressure.

In this particular case, I'd like to get your opinion as to why it is that our efforts have perhaps not been as strong as they should be.

[Alex Neve]

Oh, if only I had the answer to that. I couldn't agree more that we live in a world plagued by inconsistencies, hypocrisy, and glaring gaps when it comes to the kinds of efforts that states, on their own or multilaterally, take to deal with terrible human rights situations like the one we see in Eritrea.

I think there are some obvious explanations. Clearly, if it's a part of the world that is of limited geopolitical, commercial, or security interest, it's somewhat less likely to attract human rights scrutiny. On the other hand, if it's a part of the world with complicated, volatile, and contentious geopolitical, security, and political relationships, that often means politics trump human rights concerns. To a certain degree, I think Eritrea suffers from both of those. The Horn of Africa, the situation in Somalia, concerns about terrorism, al-Shabaab, the crucial shipping lanes of the Red Sea—these are some of the reasons that this is an important part of the world. At the same time, though, Eritrea itself is a newer country. Whatever the reason, it has never been approached as a key player in that bigger puzzle. So I think that's a piece of it. Sometimes it's just that priorities get set and they're done on a basis that leaves some countries off the list. Eritrea's been unlucky in that regard.

In 1990-91, there was an effort to topple the brutal government of Mengistu in Ethiopia. The international community was backing these horses, was all for the Eritrean people to finally have autonomy and independence, was all for a new government to come to power in Ethiopia. Both came to pass.

I think we often see this in world affairs. States find it difficult to switch their tack when the horse they backed in the race proves to be imperfect. Eritrea and Ethiopia are sworn enemies, but in neither case are we seeing the kind of international pressure and scrutiny that's necessary to reduce human rights abuses. You wonder if this might be because these places might still be associated with good human rights stories, and many people may not have moved on to recognize more recent realities.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you.

The alleged collusion between mining firms and this particularly repressive government is a particular concern of mine and of all Canadians. There's another company that's active in Eritrea, NGEx, which extracts potash in the region, I believe. I don't know if you've heard of any alleged violations of human rights on their part.

[Alex Neve]

I don't know of that company's presence. As I said in relation to Nevsun, regardless of what we do or do not know, or have or have not been able to confirm, the mere fact that a company has made a decision to operate in a country that is so repressive, that has such a pervasive pattern of widespread human rights violations, means that the possibility of being implicated in any number of ways in that country's sorry human rights situation is very strong. I say this even though it is true that no allegations against Nevsun have yet been confirmed. Therefore, at a minimum, it is important to ensure that companies in that situation have clear, meaningful policies in place, policies to which they've devoted considerable attention and resources, with a view to improving the human rights situation in the countries in which they operate. I don't think we're seeing that kind of scrutiny or reporting from companies operating in Eritrea.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I'm afraid that uses up the available time for that question. It actually brings our questioning to an end.

But I do have just one thing I wanted to ask. You mentioned that as long ago as almost 20 years ago you knew of some Eritreans in Canada. To what degree is there an expatriate community of Eritreans in Canada? Is it substantial?

[Alex Neve]

It is quite significant. I don't know the numbers, but it certainly is a community of note. They're organized, they have associations, and community centres. I know it most significantly in Toronto, but I would imagine it's present in other parts of the country as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Has Amnesty been able to do any work on behalf of individuals associated with those families—you know, relatives in Canada of people who are oppressed or imprisoned in Eritrea—or is this the kind of country, as was true with Ethiopia under the Mengistu regime, where actually drawing attention to an individual did not help? What would the situation be?

[Alex Neve]

Sorry, do you mean are we able to work with people who are in Canada who have family members in prison back in Eritrea?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Yes, those who have been identified as a person who, let us say, has a brother or a parent or whoever imprisoned in Eritrea. Are you able to work with them or not?

[Alex Neve]

We certainly have had individuals in Canada who have come to Amnesty International with that kind of information. The support we can offer is sort of the assurance that we are campaigning on those issues. As I said, even when you just think about religious followers, there are more than 3,000 religiously based prisoners of conscience in the country before you even start to look at the wider numbers. We're not able to take up every case in an individual way. Often we have to do the campaigning on issues and themes. There are some cases that we've taken up as emblematic of this much wider group of prisoners.

But certainly, whenever individuals in Canada have been able to provide us information about what's happening to their relatives, etc., back home, that's an incredibly important source of information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Actually, there is one last piece of contextual information that I just haven't been able to figure out. Everybody is familiar with countries in which religion A is beating up on religion B. Pick your country, and it's the Muslims beating up on the Christians, or the Hindus beating up on the Muslims, or something like that.

This is a little unusual. If I were just kind of casually putting religions together I wouldn't have thought you would get a situation where you have the Orthodox, the Muslims, the Lutherans, and the fourth one—

[Alex Neve]

Catholics.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

—and the Catholics kind of protected and everybody else oppressed, and out of that a significant amount of religious oppression going on. This is just an unusual situation.

Do you have any explanation as to why this is the way it is, or is it just beyond your knowledge?

[Alex Neve]

All I am thinking as you are asking the question is, “good question”.

I would imagine that if you go further with this study, there probably would be some sociologists or political scientists who would be able to give you some insights into that, because it is a very interesting phenomena as to why those four religions in particular are the ones that have been privileged—not to say that followers of those religions don't suffer for other reasons—

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Right, of course.

[Alex Neve]

—maybe not for their religious beliefs, whereas all others are so terribly vilified. It's a perplexing part of the story.

I think part of it is that there is just brutality and repression at the heart of so many decisions and policies that get set in Eritrea, and not necessarily always logic.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Maybe it's simply that those religions have a strong enough external infrastructure to buy an exemption for their followers from the general system of abuse.