Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 1st, 2012

[Patricia Malikail]

In a situation like that it's up to the country itself to decide who it's going to let run in their election. But at the same time, outside observers can and should make their comments known.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I think I just did.

You spoke about the fact that the militia seems to be funded directly or indirectly from conflict minerals. Is there a direct link from the militias to the government, or are they separate? What impact do the conflict minerals have on the government's revenues?

[Patricia Malikail]

I think in the DRC it's very difficult to separate all the threads. There were as many as 50 armed groups. Some of them were amalgamated into the national forces. What we say is that the amalgamation has been incomplete. Even if people are part of the armed forces, they may have different loyalties. They may have loyalties to people outside. There are proxy militias in the country. It's a very complicated situation. You can certainly see some threads, but it's difficult to pull the situation all together with proof.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

We've had witnesses here giving us horrendous stories. When you look at the reputation of this country, it's very troubling in the sense that it's hard to find a sense of hope. The fact that we have people willing to travel here and be witnesses before us I think is that glimmer of hope we talked about—the good people who were there.

At the end of the whole report we're going to do, will the government in that country react at all? Will they have any interest in the comments of the Canadian government?

[Patricia Malikail]

I think every country is concerned about its international reputation. There are repercussions in terms of their stature in the international community, but also in terms of the willingness of other people to invest and work as partners. I think it's incumbent on us to bring these concerns to the attention of governments. It's up to them what they do with them, but most realize there are consequences.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

From time to time, when we identify somebody held captive in one country or another under very terrible treatment, once that country notes that somebody's at least looking at it, there is a tendency for things to improve. So I guess we have to be optimistic.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That was well timed at four minutes and 57 seconds.

Mr. Hiebert, I think you're next.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to all for being here.

I see that Canada, Belgium, and the U.S. are there. To what degree are we working together with our international partners, or are we just working in silos and all trying to achieve the same objectives?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

From our programming perspective, we work closely with the U.K. on the conflict minerals issue. We've worked with international organizations, in particular the International Organization for Migration. We have supported an OECD project that includes countries like Belgium and France.

We try to avoid silos. The situation is complex enough that we need to work with our partners, whether they are bilateral partners or international organizations, to achieve our objectives. So we definitely work with partners. We exchange information. There's some coordination that takes place, whether it's at the UN or in other places.

[Julia Hill]

Thank you.

We work very much in concert with other partners. As we know, it is a massive challenge in that country to begin with, so we know we can't do it ourselves.

But I would like to underline that one of the first projects, which brought international attention to this in the first place with respect to violence against women, was a joint Canada-Belgium initiative in 2006—la lutte contre la violence sexuelle. They took an area and we took another area, but we worked very closely together and shared information. It's very important that we be with others.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Is there an overlap of resources as they're applied?

[Julia Hill]

No. It's complementary.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Okay.

I know that one of you mentioned a connection between conflict minerals and the abuse that's occurring. I think it was tied to the fact that a significant number of the workers at these mineral sites are women, and that's where a lot of the abuse occurs.

I don't know if we were a founding member, but I know that Canada took a strong initiative in the Kimberley Process. Can you tell me how that's working out? Is that having an impact on the value of the conflict minerals? Is that making a difference?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

If I may, I'll just say a few words, because this is not an area under my current responsibilities. But in a previous life, if I may say so, I was director general of global issues at Foreign Affairs at the time when the Kimberley Process was being developed. I think this is one of the great achievements of the international community. It has had a massive impact, I think, in terms of the industry and making sure that whatever is exported or imported has to be certified.

I understand that now you have artisanal ventures, where we are trying as well to have a positive impact, because this continues to be a source of concern. But the Kimberley Process as such has had I think a very important impact.

[Patricia Malikail]

I think it's also useful to say that these processes say not only what's illegal, but also what's legal. I think countries like the DRC also need the means to be able to draw on their mineral wealth, so these processes have been legal in allowing us to distinguish between the two. They're not perfect, but they have made a difference.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

The artisanal miners are working within that context as well....

[Patricia Malikail]

I think the difficulty for artisanal miners is incorporating them in a process that probably was made for much larger, outside kinds of companies. So how do you deal with the size of these operations within that process? That's what people are coming to....

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

For the benefit of our analysts, are you aware of the Kimberley Process? I just want to make sure that everybody is on the same page. Do you understand what that process is?

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I didn't hear what you were saying, sir.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Okay.

Maybe you can just summarize for the benefit of the other members—so that we're not talking inside baseball—what the Kimberley Process is all about.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

To put it simply, it's an international agreement through which all diamonds that are produced and are to be exported have a certificate to guarantee that they're not conflict minerals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We'll turn now to Professor Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I did want to follow up on a question of Wayne Marston, my colleague, who I think was referring to Bosco Ntaganda. The concern I have is that he is an indicted war criminal before the International Criminal Court.

All state parties to the treaty for an International Criminal Court have obligations with respect to bringing these war criminals to justice. Have we made representations to the DRC with respect to their obligations to surrender him to the ICC?

[Patricia Malikail]

We have not made specific representations when it comes to this gentleman.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Do you not think that, as I say, inasmuch we are a state party to that treaty and we have a person who is in effect a fugitive from justice with respect to a treaty that not only are we a state party to, but that we had a primary involvement in securing—undertaking as part of that treaty to work to bringing indicted war criminals to justice—we should not turn away from this responsibility? There is an indicted war criminal. We should be making representations in that regard.