Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 1st, 2012

[Patricia Malikail]

I'll take your suggestion on board, Mr. Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

On the national action plan on women, peace, and security, I just returned, as it happens, from Africa, and I know that in South Africa they're working on this as well, and we have a developed plan here. To what extent have we looked to or consulted with other countries for that purpose, be it the United States, which has its own recent initiative in this regard, or a country like South Africa, which has been very much engaged in these issues?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

Thank you for that question.

I don't have too many details. What I would say is that Canada chairs the UN's working group on women, peace, and security. I'm sure it's a good opportunity to exchange experiences, best practices, and so forth with our partners. Of course, we have also seen with interest the U.S. action plan that was recently announced. With regard to South Africa in particular, I wouldn't be able to tell you if we've had this specific conversation, but I think at the UN, generally speaking, when that group meets on a regular basis, yes, there are interactions to make sure that we go in the right direction collectively.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

When I was in South Africa, I met with a group of Congolese from the DRC who were particularly concerned about the issue of impunity that I mentioned, particularly concerned with regard to the continuation of sexual violence in the eastern region, and who also raised questions about the efficacy of the United Nations with respect to UN mechanisms to protect women in armed conflict from sexual violence.

Can you comment on that particular issue, including the efficacy of UN mechanisms?

[Patricia Malikail]

I think that the presence of MONUSCO has made a huge difference in the DRC. Without MONUSCO, so much more could be happening. We know that MONUSCO has tried to deploy more forces in the eastern Congo. I can't comment directly on the efficacy, but I certainly think the right efforts are being made by MONUSCO to look at this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You've still got some time, Professor Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

No, it's okay, I'll—

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You're done. Okay.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

All right, it is Lois Brown's turn.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm not a member of this committee, I am merely here as an observer and an interested party, but I do have a question I would like to ask.

I was recently in South Sudan. One of the issues that we were made aware of is that in the northwest area of South Sudan oftentimes girls are taken at the ages of eight or nine for sex, and of course, by the time they're 12 or 13 years of age, they're pregnant. They have just a horrific record of loss of life with these young girls. So I'm asking a question about education, what is the education component or availability for these girls? We know that having girls in school in Afghanistan has put them in much safer, more secure situations, and the opportunity has been reduced.

My question, knowing that in South Sudan education, at best, is four years—they consider that to be primary education—is there any view in the DRC to increasing opportunities for education? Is the international community looking at this, which, in reality, would put a protection around the girls, and put them in a secure and safe environment?

[Julia Hill]

We are currently reviewing our programming in the DRC. Actually, a very helpful element has been the hard-to-read but important testimony from this committee as well. Our focus, as I mentioned, is on women, health, and protection against sexual violence. There are some components—I'm going to say education, though writ more large—in the work that we're doing through CECI, but we have not, to date, seen that as being the really pointy edge of dealing with the problem.

Having said that, we'll certainly take that comment on board and look at it.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

That's really all I have, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That's all you had?

In that case, we’ll go to Madam Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here today.

Actually, I have a question for Ms. Gervais-Vidricaire.

You spoke about the national police. You are investing in security and you mentioned military justice. But we have heard from a lot of witnesses who say that the justice system in the Democratic Republic of the Congo isn't working. There's a lack of resources, a blatant lack of legitimacy and impartiality. For example, police officers would be judged by people who are not necessarily as high up as they are. So there are big problems.

Is military justice really the right place to invest? Wouldn't it be better to invest in education and training? Could you please explain what you are doing with respect to the justice system?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I would first like to say something about working with fragile states, such as the Congo. There are several reasons for the fragile nature of those states, but we often see that where we choose to step is in areas such as security, police support and so on. The other area of choice is really the justice system. We cannot consider having a solid state that is well governed without government institutions that inspire confidence in the people.

Having said that, it is of course always a challenge to work in these areas in a country such as the Democratic Republic of the Congo. That's why we intervene and try to develop the capacities so that things can evolve. We often accomplish it through training because people generally aren't aware of the standards that should be applied, particularly when it comes to human rights, and so on. We need to start somewhere. We thought that these projects would give us a foot in the door so we could have a positive impact. Certainly there are plenty of challenges and there are risks. The results are often measurable over the longer term. It's often deceiving when we look after one year. We ask ourselves whether it has really changed. It does, but bit by bit. It's important to be patient when it comes to this.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

My second question is for Ms. Malikail.

I met with a group of people in my riding from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. They mentioned the problems with the elections, and particularly about the violence. They also tabled a brief in the National Assembly of the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

It's interesting to know that the Democratic Republic of the Congo sent delegations almost everywhere around the globe to meet with the parliamentarians of a number of governments to gain inspiration for how to organize its elections. It's very interesting to know that these people decided to look to Canada. So they adopted the same system as we use. Relations between the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Canada seem to be fairly well developed. The Congo isn't necessarily a country that is easy to deal with, but I think people are very open there to having Canada be directly involved in its electoral system. I met with a number of people, and I really think that Canada has an opportunity. These people are inspired by our system, they want the same democratic system as we have. Canada really has an opportunity to go into a country and take over democracy, if we can say that.

You said that there were observers, but what did Canada do concretely during the elections, and what does it intend to do after the elections to help the Democratic Republic of the Congo become a democratic state like ours, as it wants to be?

[Patricia Malikail]

Thank you very much for your question.

As my colleague Marie Gervais-Vidricaire said, I think it's often a matter of standards.

I just had the good fortune of being at a debriefing by the Canada-Africa Parliamentary Association, which had just visited Kenya and South Sudan.

I think that parliamentary relations have an impact. It's important for parliamentarians to meet their colleagues, discuss the issues, and consider how to work together in the national interest. It has a direct impact, because colleagues are talking to colleagues, people who are in the same line of work. That's one opportunity for these sorts of exchanges to happen. It's concrete and direct.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

The last question goes to the Conservatives. I think Mr. Sweet will take this.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just wanted to follow up on one issue, where I had left off with the word "finally".

You mentioned that the formulaic process that we have is different for each country, as far as the plan that we have for the defence of women based on the Security Council recommendations. I just wanted to know about the part of our plan in 16.1 and 16.2, which is related to military personnel, and you answered me earlier about how many police are there, etc.

I'm just wondering in relation to helping victims feel safer so they come forward, are we engaged in making sure that our police personnel there are reporting incidents, keeping records, and acting, in circumstances where they can, to protect these women on the ground? Are they recording the instances so that they can report those back to MONUSCO?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I don't think that the specific role of the police officers that we have on the ground is to directly address these issues. What I can tell you is that people who are deployed in a country like Congo, the DRC, have been trained to understand what these issues are and to be sensitive when they see a situation. I'm pretty sure that if a Canadian police officer is a witness to something of that nature, he will report it to MONUSCO or to his superiors.

Just to come back a little to what you said earlier, maybe I was not totally clear when I said that we have a national action plan. You seem to know it very well. It's general in nature. It doesn't address specific countries. It's meant to be implemented within Canada and internationally. Our partner departments—National Defence, CIDA, and Public Safety—all go in the same direction on the basis of the action plan. What I wanted to say is that each department is responsible for producing its own report on implementation.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Depending on the country, the nature of the violations towards women, the resources we have in the region, and the access the government gives us, the implementation of that program would be different from country to country. Is that fair to say?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

The implementation would be somewhat different in the sense that we don't have the resources or the same personnel in each country. That's obvious. The approach is uniform. The gender-based analysis is the same when we look at projects wherever they are in the world. We all work from the same script, which is the action plan and the UN resolutions.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

It's good to have that on the record. The principles remain the same. It's the execution. The execution would be not only for the countries where we are, but also for the partners. With respect to our MONUSCO partners, it would depend on whether they're present in the country. You mentioned that they're complementary. If we don't have that complementarity, it makes it a little tougher for us to spread a resource over a broader ground.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

Again, we try to make sure that whoever is deployed has the right training. We've been very active, and you will see that when we do our first report. Quite a number of activities have been led by the various departments in terms of training officers—whether they're police officers or public servants—to know what the national action plan is about and to know what Resolution 1325 and the other resolutions are about.