Evidence of meeting #27 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
A question of you, Mr. Chair. On the Canada-China dialogue, are you aware if the Falun Gong's issues have ever been raised there?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I am not aware one way or another, but I could try to get our analysts to get the answer back to you. I'll do that.
Unfortunately, that uses up your time, Mr. Marston.
We now go to Mr. Hiebert.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you very much for providing such courageous and graphic testimony. I know it was obviously very difficult for you to explain what had happened to you, and personally I'm astonished at the barbaric treatment you were forced to endure. But by speaking out, I think you're filling an important role in informing not only us but others as to what is actually happening.
When you were in the prisons that you experienced, obviously, there were other Falun Gong practitioners who were imprisoned as well. Can you give me an idea of how many Falun Gong practitioners you believe are experiencing what you experienced?
As an Individual
I come from Shanghai originally, and the Falun Gong practitioners in Shanghai would meet regularly. I think there are thousands of Falun Gong practitioners in Shanghai who have suffered different levels of torture and oppression, from people in their 70s to people in their 30s. They suffered what I suffered. And I am speaking only of Shanghai.
Many people suffered much as we did and others suffered more. In the 30 provinces of China, it's hard to say what the number is exactly. According to the Chinese government's statistics, there were 70 million Falun Gong practitioners in China, and I think there are about 100 million. As long as you do not give up your belief in Falun Gong, they will oppress and torture you. Some people have given up because of the fear and some people continue in their resolve. I would think this affects tens of millions. I think there are 30 million people who perished because of torture, and the ones who are still alive are suffering.
There are many torturers who went underground. In the earlier years, the Chinese government would publicly announce its intention to oppress, but now it has gone underground. Because the Chinese people would come and question them, the government went underground. This secretive oppression and torture is hard to quantify. On the Internet, you would find new cases of oppression every day. They're still looking for people who have disappeared, so it's difficult to pinpoint what the number is, because of the secretiveness of the torture. We are talking about tens of millions.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
What do you believe is the most effective thing our government or other governments or international organizations could do to facilitate the release of these people who are being tortured? How could we convince the Chinese government that this should not be happening in the first place? Do you have names of people from the prisons you were in who would benefit, as you have, from the assistance of our government or other governments in seeking their release?
As an Individual
The Canadian government has offered help for a long time. It's been a long time since they started helping. I've felt it myself. Of course, I benefited from it because I was jailed early. In 1999, when the oppression started, I was put in jail, so I was in the labour camp for two years.
The situation actually changed during the two years. As I said earlier, I did not understand why they monitored me so stringently and then became more lenient. At the beginning I did not understand why, but after I came out of jail I understood: I understood that this was the effort coming out of the Canadian government and Canadian society.
The voice the Canadian government offered about the Falun Gong practitioners is very effective in regard to the Chinese government. I'm an example. My younger brother is an example.
In the same labour camp, when I spoke up for other fellow prisoners, the police did not actually use their voices against me because they knew that I had a background and that I had people supporting me, and that was the voice of the Canadian government.
If you tell the Chinese government about what you know about the Falun Gong organization, definitely it will have an impact. It will help. They will even take measures to improve the conditions, because if international society keeps voicing their opinion, of course the Chinese government has to keep up its face of a society of human rights and freedom of speech. They want to leave a good impression in the international society. So they would have to heed the international voice; otherwise, they would lose face, and they don't want to lose face.
So if you say this exists, that this type of torture exists and this oppression exists, they will have to heed that. If there are many more governments of different countries that start voicing this, it will give even bigger help to us.
I think the Canadian government is ranked either number one or number two in the group of countries that are offering help to the Falun Gong practitioners, but there is not a uniform voice yet in international society. If everybody stands up and speaks up against the Chinese government, they will have to give up their oppression.
So I think, of course, that we are the people who benefited from it.
As to other Falun Gong practitioners, we can offer you the names afterwards. We hope that the group of people who you want to help will not stay only within the category of their spouses being Canadian; I think this group should be expanded and applied to all Falun Gong practitioners, to people who really are in need of your help for them to be able to come here and enjoy the peace of freedom.
As an Individual
You want us to offer you names. There are many in China. In Shanghai, Tilanqiao prison is notorious for its torture. I was there. When I was released from Tilanqiao prison, there were many. Exactly how many, I don't know. I can't tell you. But there were hundreds, at least. I knew many people personally, dozens, and they're still there.
The man I mentioned whose genitals were beaten, his name is Bin Zhu. He and Jie Thu Lay and all of them were in Tilanqiao prison. They're still there. They're still being tortured.
On the surface, the torture seems to have gone, but as we said earlier, it has gone underground. An individual can be imprisoned and sit in a room by himself. Two murderers will sit there and watch you during the day, and two other ones at night. If you move, they will beat you.
One person, Zhang Lee Yun, when he was put in jail started telling these guards that Falun Gong was good. These four hooligans pinned him to the ground and started beating him. You couldn't even recognize him. His nose was torn up and his teeth were knocked out. You couldn't recognize him. He said Falun Gong was good. That's all he said.
This is too inhumane. And there are many, still so many.
As I said, your assistance was very helpful. The Tilanqiao prison in Shanghai is very evil.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to commend you both for being here today. I know it's not easy to have to relive those experiences.
Particularly in your case, Mingli Lin, it's not easy to have to relive the torture that you endured in prison.
You know, I've always felt that the Falun Gong values of truth, compassion, and tolerance were the kinds of values that exemplified the best of Chinese civilization, and that therefore the Falun Gong should be rewarded for being exemplary Chinese citizens rather than being punished, imprisoned, and tortured, as they have.
I want to take this opportunity, Mr. Chairman, to commend you for your long-time involvement in representations on behalf of the Falun Gong.
And sitting here is Mr. David Kilgour, who's been so steadfast all these years, both while he was in government and, maybe even more importantly, since he's been out of Parliament and government.
I want to say to you, Shenli Lin, that it was really the heroic involvement of your wife, Jinyu Li, whom I first met back in 2001....
I sometimes feel it's the wiser spouses who end up being the reason that prisoners are released.
I think you know, but I just want to reiterate, how her efforts were so singularly important in bringing about your release.
I have two questions. The first has to do with the fact that Canadian governments have tended to raise issues of human rights in China generally, and that of the Falun Gong—in particular the political prisoners who are Falun Gong—more privately than publicly in their relations with the Chinese government. That's not true for us as parliamentarians. We've raised the issues publicly. But the governments have tended to raise them privately.
Do you think this is the best mix—namely, the governments doing this privately and the parliamentarians publicly—or do you feel that governments should be more public in their representations to the Chinese authorities?
As an Individual
I think both have an impact. Openly urging them definitely is more effective. Making a personal urging has an effect as well.
The Chinese officials have strange ways of making friends. For example, if there is a Chinese government official who has more conversations about Falun Gong with foreigners, he will suffer suspicion. So I think openly urging them is better. It will make the international communities and other governments hear this and attach importance to these questions and stand up and voice this together. I think this is a very effective way, but under certain circumstances, if a personal exchange of opinions can be done, I think this could be effective as well.
As an Individual
My personal opinion is that openly urging them, by comparison, is probably more effective. The Chinese government cares about its face. For example, when I was in prison, sometimes the inspectors would come to inspect the prison and then the prison would start doing hygienic work. They would have to make sure that everything is perfect. After the inspectors were gone, they would just let everything go. So they care about their faces.
You talk to them personally, and they will say, yes.... Personally they would tell you, “How could this happen? You're right. I will definitely go and look after this.” This is fake. This is hypocritical. After you're gone—from 1999 to now has been more than a decade—there have been many urgings coming from the international communities. On the surface, the Chinese government has reduced its oppression, but it has gone underground.
What I'm trying to say is, your urging definitely is effective. They will know this: his brother is in Canada, so if I kill him in prison, his brother will not let us off the hook. If they say, okay, if you kill him, his brother is going to go and voice his opinion overseas, this is going to deter them. If your relatives and your older brother and your younger brother are out of China, they will not kill you. But if nobody knows about your relatives being abroad, they will kill you.
For example, another individual, Mr. Shun, was beaten to death. For 20 hours they would not let him sleep. Repugnant letters were forced on him. If he refused, they poured boiling water on his body. He lost consciousness right away, and then they'd throw him in cold water to soak him for a week. All his ribs were broken.
So I think openly voicing, openly urging is the better way.
On a personal level, it may have some effect, but it can be deceptive. They're like hooligans. The Communists are like hooligans. They will tell you, “We were not oppressing them.” This is just a lie. It was just my brother and me. I'm not talking about anybody else. And of course along with us there are many others who suffered. We are the examples. So they're hooligans. They do not talk sense, the Chinese government.
As an Individual
I'll add something. The deceptiveness of the Chinese government has happened to me. When I first came to Canada, there was a newspaper article published in China that said I received humanitarian treatment in Chinese prison: “Even though Shenli Lin did not give up his ideas of Falun Gong, did not want to repent, did not even admit that he was wrong, we still treated him humanely.” The article said so.
If somebody who does not really know what has happened and reads this article, of course, they will believe it: that even though he did not want to repent, he was treated well. But this is exactly what happened to me, what I just told everybody here. People can be deceived.
So openly urging them I think has a better, stronger effect.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
We're up to eight minutes on you, Professor Cotler.
I have to go to Madam Péclet now.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
I would just like to thank the witnesses and tell you that I really admire your courage with all you have been through. I hope that the Government of Canada will work with the Chinese authorities to end this torture of your brothers and sisters in China. I hope we're able to do that.
That's it. Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
Thank you, Madam Péclet. Thank you to our witnesses as well.
We have actually gone a little bit past the time we normally end. I'll just thank both of you very much.
Also, there are a few other folks who I wouldn't mind thanking here. There are a number of people involved with Falun Dafa in Canada who have been very persistent in ensuring that these important issues remain in front of parliamentarians over a period of a decade now.
I want to express my appreciation. I have to express a particular appreciation to our translator. We only have one translator going from Chinese to English and then back. That is not easy. I can watch him doing it through the window here. My congratulations on a very difficult task.
That's it. Thank you very much, everybody, and in particular to Shenli Lin and Mingli Lin. Thank you very much for bringing these issues to our attention.
With that, we are adjourned.