Evidence of meeting #28 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was venezuela.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer McCoy  Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to this 28th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, on this Tuesday, March 13, 2012.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are continuing our study of human rights violations in Venezuela. Today's witness, Jennifer McCoy, the director of the Americas program at the Carter Center, is our final witness in these hearings.

You are batting cleanup for us, Ms. McCoy. We would very much be interested to hear what you have to share with us today. Please feel free to begin at any time.

1:05 p.m.

Dr. Jennifer McCoy Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

Thank you.

I will try to address some of the questions the clerk gave that you might be interested in, starting very briefly with a little background about our work in Venezuela.

I am a political scientist and have been studying Venezuela since 1983, visiting back and forth over these many years. As director of the Carter Center's Americas program, I have monitored elections in Venezuela beginning in 1998, including national elections in 1998, 2000, 2004, and 2006.

We have also worked in Venezuela through a group that we have formed, called the Friends of the Inter-American Democratic Charter. It is a hemispheric group of some former leaders, ministers, and human rights experts. In fact, four distinguished Canadians are in that group: former foreign ministers John Manley and Barbara McDougall, as well as former Prime Minister Joe Clark and former ambassador John Graham. We have two members in Venezuela who are human rights experts there.

With that group we have also had some analytical missions to Venezuela and we've made about three public statements on various issues. One was the non-extension of the broadcast licence to RCTV in 2007. Another was urging people to participate in the constitutional referendum in 2007. Another was recently, just last fall, with regard to the ruling of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights on the disqualification of a political candidate from standing in elections this year, in which we were supporting the Inter-American Court of Human Rights.

I want to make a few comments about the current political situation in Venezuela and the current human rights situation.

This year is the 13th year of the Chávez administration and the movement that's referred to as the Bolivarian Revolution, attempting to bring about major change to Venezuela on the social, economic, and political fronts. We're facing a presidential election year, so it's a very important year. It is also one filled with great uncertainty, partly because the most recent election results and public opinion polling indicate a potentially very competitive race, possibly a very close race. That election is coming October 7 of this year, followed by elections for governors in December of this year.

The uncertainty is added to by the illness and the state of health of the President—you know, when he will be recovering, to what extent, when he might be able to campaign, etc. As a result, this is a very important year for Venezuela and for the hemisphere, I would say. The implications are important for the hemisphere because of Venezuela's ties and foreign relations with many countries.

On the human rights subject, which you all are interested in, I think generally this is not a country with severe human rights abuses in terms of threats to the physical integrity of persons. The general concerns that are raised have to do with a weak independence of powers and accountability mechanisms in the country—that is, an erosion in the separation of powers in the presidential system as well as politicization of important institutions, including the judiciary and other entities such as the ombudsman's office, the attorney general, etc., and the perceptions that these are politicized.

When we think about human rights, we need to think about the broad range from economic and social to civil, political, and cultural. Here what we have, of course, is a great experiment in two areas, with Venezuela trying to increase participation and social inclusion of sectors of the population that had been excluded both in terms of their ability to participate in the wealth of the country and in terms of their ability to participate in political decision-making. We can see the increase in participation mechanisms politically in the large number of votes and referenda as well as in local neighbourhood communal councils and various experiments at that level.

On the economic and social side, we've seen great progress in reducing poverty and in providing social benefits to people in terms of education, health, subsidized food, etc. Within those economic and social programs I think there has been mixed progress. The record shows that some are working better than others. There is still a serious housing shortage, for example. There are occasional food shortages. We see a mixed record on the economic and social side.

In terms of civil rights, there are some concerns in particular areas. One serious area is the penal side. It has to do with the prison system. It has to do with the high crime rates, particularly the high homicide rates. It is also tied in with the judicial system. There's a great backlog of cases, so prisons are severely overcrowded and dangerous. We've seen various episodes of violence within the prisons. There are a number of reasons for this, and it is not new to the Chávez administration; this has been a concern over many decades in Venezuela. Nevertheless, the homicide rate is rising.

I think that some of the overcrowding may also have to do with drug policy. Venezuela is actually cracking down on small drug offences, which, as we know, leads to high rates of incarceration in many countries of the hemisphere.

A large number of people in jail are there on pretrial detention. The length of time spent waiting for a charge or a trial can sometimes exceed what is legally allowed, and this is a serious problem as well.

In terms of the police situation, the Chávez administration has tried to carry out police reform. They've had a couple of different councils and commissions look at police reforms and make recommendations. There was a very serious commission about four years ago, and one of the recommendations was to create a national police force, which they are in the midst of doing. I don't have specific records on that, but I have been told that in some areas it is an improvement over what we had seen.

There are some accusations of police abuse of people they are attempting to apprehend, but overall I think it's probably more of an issue that the transition in the police forces, the need for training of new police forces, is in process. That may be contributing to the high crime rates at this point in time.

Another issue of concern in this area has to do with the high level of arms in Venezuela—personal arms, arms and weapons in the home. Many families are personally armed for their own protection. There are a lot of arms in the streets, and this is a concern that the government has actually recognized in the National Assembly. They have set up a commission for disarmament. This goes back to 2002, when we at the Carter Center were helping to facilitate a dialogue and mediate the political conflict between President Chávez and his political opponents. There was a proposal for disarming the civilian population; it did not get off the ground. They're trying to move in that direction now. I think it might help in terms of the level of violence in the country if that could succeed.

On the political side, we might look at both freedom of expression and political rights, including voting and other kinds of participation. Freedom of expression is controversial. There are many people who are concerned about that. I would say that there is open expression in two areas. First, we can look at and document the level of social protests, of which there are many. There are protests about various social issues, including social security, pensions, housing, labour issues, etc. There is certainly freedom to have social protests, and they are occurring in large numbers.

There is a pluralistic media as well. The imbalance in the media that we saw a decade ago, in which the private sector completely dominated the airwaves, has now shifted. It's a bit more balanced. There are more public television and radio stations. The market share, though, is still dominated by the private sector.

There certainly is still a plurality of sources of information and the ability to speak out and express dissent through the media; on the other hand, there is some harassment. There is self-censorship among some media outlets and journalists. There has been harassment—that is to say, administrative sanctioning and fines—of the political opposition's two most vocal TV stations.

In terms of political participation, I think voting now enjoys a high level of confidence among the population. It had been seriously eroded between the period of 2004 to 2006. The national election authorities have been able to work with the political parties and put into place a number of audit mechanisms and security mechanisms. There is now, according to public opinion polls, about 70% confidence in the electoral system, including the electronic voting machines.

I don't think we need to fear about the integrity of the vote itself. In terms of the elections coming up and the recent elections, perhaps the biggest concern is more about the fairness of the campaign in terms of inequities in finance, access to the media, etc.

I expect participation to be high. It has been high in Venezuela, so I think we can expect an extremely high level of participation in this year's two important elections.

I'll make just one final comment. In terms of the security situation, particularly looking at the border, I think the rapprochement with Colombia is extremely important and positive. That has to do with an insecure border situation, a border where for many decades there have been problems with smuggling, contraband, and guerillas, with drug participants going back and forth. This is not something new to Venezuela, but with rapprochement, we're beginning to see more cooperation between Venezuela and Colombia on these issues.

Let me close there. I would be happy to take your questions.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much. That was a very, very interesting presentation.

We have enough time to allow six-minute question-and-answer rounds. We will start with Mr. Sweet, from the government side.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much. I would agree with the chair that it was a very informative presentation. We appreciate it, Ms. McCoy.

We've heard evidence from many witnesses, some of whom were extraordinarily strident in support of the Chávez regime, and we've had many who were almost as strident on the other side.

It seem to me that Venezuela—politically, sociologically, economically—is a story of duplicity, or better yet, polarization. Am I overstating that?

1:15 p.m.

Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer McCoy

It's a country that is itself very polarized. It also polarizes outsiders looking at it and trying to judge it.

That comes in part because President Chávez has taken a strategy of confrontation to bring about change. As he's used this strategy of confrontation, that has also produced backlash. That's what has produced the political conflict in the country: backlash from others.

The country is polarized. Most people trying to study it or experience it from the outside therefore end up with a position that may be more on one side or the other, and therefore polarized as well.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

It doesn't help when Mr. Chávez begins to build bridges and relationships with people like Iran's Ahmadinejad, who is, if not the greatest threat to the free world, certainly right up there. I'm certain that most of my colleagues would agree with that. Certainly one of my colleagues would agree with me that it's the number one threat.

You're saying that although there's a polarization, you're pretty confident in the integrity of the electoral process politically.

1:20 p.m.

Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer McCoy

Yes, I am.

Venezuela actually has the most advanced automated voting system in the world. It's automated at a number of different levels: touch-screen voting machines, transmission of votes, identification of the voters when they come in, etc. They've worked since 2004 to create a number of mechanisms and audits so that the political parties and the citizens will have confidence in the system. I think we can have pretty good confidence in that as long as these audit mechanisms are played out.

Could I just make a comment on Iran?

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Absolutely.

1:20 p.m.

Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer McCoy

Okay.

Part of Hugo Chávez's strategy since he came to power in 1999 has been to change the global structure, and particularly to reduce the role and the dominance of the United States as a power within the world and within the region. That has been his strategy: to create a more multipolar world. He's done that through a south-south strategy in particular, trying to create more integration within Latin American and particularly within South America but also reaching out to other southern or developing countries. In doing so, he has indeed reached out to those who are particularly pariahs or antithetical to the United States, so it's not only Iran: it's Russia, it's Belarus, it's been Libya, it's been Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

In sum, Iran has been part of his strategy, but the strategy is broader than that, with the creation of this south-south linkage and independence from the United States. I just want to say that we have to keep in mind that although he is vocally supporting, for example, Iran's right to nuclear energy, he's not supporting the right to have nuclear weapons.

The other thing I want to point out is that the relationship between Venezuela and Iran is a long one, going back to their co-founding of OPEC in the 1960s, so the relationship with Iran is not new, nor is it unique to Latin America. Of course, as you recall, Brazil has also tried to play an important role with Iran by trying to mediate with Turkey last year, etc., so Venezuela is not the only country in Latin America doing that.

However, I understand your concern about the close ties and what the ramifications of those ties might be.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Thank you.

You also mentioned that you felt the ability to express oneself in the street through social expression and the protest movement seemed to be unfettered in Venezuela, but there were still significant penalties for those who broadcast. Does it continue to be the case today that there are punitive measures towards those who broadcast that they're against Mr. Chávez's regime? Do they still use these legal mechanisms to try to silence them?

1:20 p.m.

Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer McCoy

Yes, there are some instances of that.

Right now the station that's experiencing this the most is called Globovisión. There was just confirmation of a fine of two million dollars against them. Over the last couple of years some of the owners have also been facing suits for other matters, personal financial issues not related to the television station, so yes, it is still going on to some extent.

I would say that the laws on the books, which do penalize some forms of dissent and some forms of insult to the government, are there more as intimidation, and they create self-censorship. They're not applied very much and they're not really enforced very often, but they're there with the potential to be applied. I think that is what creates more of an atmosphere, as I said, of self-censorship. On the other side, there is also a bit of intimidation of NGOs and civil organizations that may be worried about, for example, where their financing comes from and the kinds of activities they're involved in, because there are laws that restrict this. It's not so much that there are many examples of enforcement, but that there is the possibility of enforcement.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

The fact that it's in their civil code or criminal code or in their regulatory regime would be anathema to us, certainly.

Thank you very much.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Mr. Marston, go ahead, please.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I am very pleased to have our guests with us today. It's not often that we get as a comprehensive view in the presentation right at the beginning as Ms. McCoy has given us.

I think your description of Iran and how Chávez supports nuclear energy as opposed to nuclear arms is probably the best news that this committee has heard in quite a long time, because everybody has had a fundamental concern.

In one of the statements that was made here—and I have repeated it to a number of different witnesses—one of the persons testifying earlier talked about how the military was closer to the people than the police were. The same witness, as I recall, talked about how the average citizen actually carried the constitution with them for a time; they were more engaged with the understanding of their government and where Chávez and others were trying to take them.

You talked of polarization. My guess would be that those people who were people of wealth and influence before this development are polarized in one place, and the people who were poor and saw some change come their way are polarized the other way. When you look at a variety of things in the current human rights situation today compared to what it was in the pre-Chávez era, how would you describe that difference now—or is there a difference?

1:25 p.m.

Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer McCoy

In the pre-Chávez era, let's say, certainly it was a democracy. Alternating political parties took office, but a large group of people in the poorer sectors felt excluded and felt invisible. For example, they didn't all have identity papers, and therefore voting rights, and weren't able to participate. This government has tried to address that issue and bring them all in, in terms of those political rights, to participate more.

As I said, prison overcrowding and crime in the slum areas have always been an issue. When I first started spending time in Venezuela in 1983, I lived with a middle-class person in what were more or less the suburbs of Caracas, and we didn't go out at night. People were afraid. Since I have been going to Venezuela, crime and security have always been an issue.

Nevertheless, those issues seem to be exacerbated now. It's worsening now, but it's not that it's new. In the past, there were different kinds.... It's more that there's collusion between the two political parties to protect their interests in terms of not investigating corruption of one or the other once they were out of office. The press was actually politicized in the sense of being sympathetic to one party or the other.

Many of these issues are not new. What's new is that there is a concentration of power now: instead of it being in two political parties, it's now in one political party, and there's particularly a concentration of power in one man, one person. That's where the concerns are based.

Then there is the concentration of power or influence through his party over the institutions, so that even if you had collusion in the past in the institutions—in the judiciary, etc.—at least there was some check and balance between two political parties. That disappears when you have only one strong political party.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

You said “the man”. Just to be clear, I presume you mean Chávez.

1:25 p.m.

Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer McCoy

I mean Chávez, yes.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

You referred to the worsening situation in violence. One of the questions that was generated, again by previous witness testimony, was about the problems around the police. The murder rate in this country is one of the worst in the world.

1:25 p.m.

Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Are you aware that perhaps the police are more complicit there than in some other countries, or the military...?

1:30 p.m.

Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual

Dr. Jennifer McCoy

No, I'm not aware of that. Brazil had a horrible reputation of police carrying out extrajudicial assassinations, including of youth who were suspected of criminal acts, particularly in the poor areas.

In Venezuela the crime is also concentrated in the poor areas. Part of the issue has been that the police have not entered those areas and are not providing protection in those areas; it's not so much that they're involved in the violence itself. As is the case with many countries, I have heard stories—I don't have particular evidence or numbers—that there is also some involvement of the different security forces—police, national guard, the military—in different parts of the country in crime, in gangs, and in drugs. That certainly is not unique to Venezuela and Latin America; we see this in any of the countries where drug production is an issue. The issue in Venezuela, of course, is not production of drugs, but transit.

Yes, I do hear stories that there is concern about participation of some officers in that sort of thing, but in terms of the actual abuse by police or military, the police are the ones who are dealing with the people. The military are not dealing with common crime in the streets.

An excellent NGO in Venezuela called Provea keeps records of this. Their 2011 report just came out, and they had about 200 to 300 people reporting some level of rough treatment by police. In terms of reporting something defined as “torture” or “harm to the physical integrity of the person”, the numbers were quite low, around 20 individual reports. We are talking about relatively small numbers, but it possibly exists, so I think there's certainly a need for police reform. I think that's evident.

They're trying to carry it out; whether they'll be successful or not is a completely different question.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

How is my time, Mr. Chairman?

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Your time is actually up.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I thought it might be.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You're very punctual.