Evidence of meeting #28 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was venezuela.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ms. McCoy, for your time and presentation. All of us highly appreciate it.
I have a couple of questions here. First, could you please tell us how the Carter Center engages with civil society and other human rights groups in Venezuela? As well, what are the main challenges in extracting information and documenting human rights abuses in Venezuela currently?
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
The Carter Center has had a variety of activities over the years. As I said, we've done election monitoring through 2006, but we've not done it since then; the Venezuelans have not invited international election missions since then. They've invited individuals, but not systematic organizational missions.
We've also done mediation, particularly between 2002 and 2004. Since 2008 we've been working with the media sector, media professionals, trying to address the polarization. The polarization continues in the media, and many professional journalists feel pressured to follow the particular partisan editorial line of whichever side they're on. We're trying to help them address, dialogue about, and receive training on professional standards. We're trying to improve that.
Access to information and transparency is a critical element. You asked how hard it is to document abuses or concerns; here transparency of government information is a very important issue. It is not always easy to get information from the government, and some private sector journalists have trouble covering even government press conferences and that kind of thing. There is an effort to pass a law on access to public information, but it has not yet passed. The NGO that I mentioned, which tries to monitor all kinds of human rights issues, follows the press to get most of their information, and they monitor hundreds of different press media outlets in order to get it. You can get a variety of views within the press about that. We've been working with that sector.
I go once or twice a year and I try to meet with various civil society organizations. We sometimes work with them in hemispheric arenas as well, at the OAS general assemblies, and we meet with the civil society groups of those participating from Venezuela. We have a lot of contact with various groups.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you.
My other two questions are these: has the political situation in Venezuela been affected by President Chávez' health issues, and to what extent have the security or police forces contributed to human rights abuses?
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
The political situation was certainly impacted starting last June, nearly a year ago, with the first announcement of his health situation. I think that was a shock to many Venezuelans, supporters and opponents alike. It was a shock to them because I don't think they had thought of him as a mortal human being, with the frailties that we all have and the risks that we all face in terms of our personal health.
That brought home the fact that his movement needs to be thinking about a successor and about how to move forward without him, because he is a larger-than-life figure. He embodies his whole movement, and the people who support him identify with him particularly. That aspect is going to be difficult to transfer to another person. That level of identity, that emotional tie, and the hope that people feel in looking at him and hearing him—that's not going to be easy to transfer, but at some point it's going to be a necessary phenomenon for his movement and for his party.
On the other hand, I think the opposition is now feeling quite confident and maybe more emboldened. They unified this year for the first time—well, not really for the first time, but they held an open primary to select a single candidate for the first time, and so far it looks as if they're maintaining their unity. That's going to help them a lot compared to their past efforts to defeat him electorally. I think they feel that will help them a lot, and they have confidence in that regard.
The health situation is very hard to predict. I think it certainly is having an impact both within his own movement and in trying to decide how to move forward and who might be a successor. It is also having an impact within the opposition in terms of foreseeing the possibility that they may be in power.
The other question was about the police....
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
It was about the security forces or police forces contributing to the human rights abuses.
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
As I mentioned a few minutes ago, in some of the human rights organizations that have tried to document it, there is some record of police—what can I say—overaction, perhaps, such as not handling situations well and detaining people. People are detained for short periods of time and then released after a protest—even journalists, etc. Many of these detentions are short term, and then nothing happens.
There might be some contribution, but I don't have evidence that police brutality is a major problem, if that's your question.
Conservative
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Dr. McCoy, for your comprehensive presentation.
I want to pursue some of the matter regarding Iran and even Syria. You mentioned that part of Venezuela's approach may be seen as a south-south strategy, distancing itself from the United States. You mentioned also that Chávez is not speaking to the issue of nuclear weaponization, but to the issue of nuclear energy. There was testimony in Congress last week raising a concern that Venezuela is breaching the sanctions regime imposed by the United Nations with respect to Iran's weaponization program.
This seems to suggest that the issue for Chávez is not just the question of believing in nuclear energy—we all believe that Iran has as much of a right to the peaceful use of nuclear energy as anybody else—but that he's gone a step beyond that and is thereby breaching the sanctions regime of not only the United Nations but of Europe and the like.
Do you have any comments on that point?
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
My understanding is that Venezuela has provided some gasoline components, for which the U.S. applied a light sanction a year ago against Venezuela as well as a couple of other companies around the world, including an Israeli company. It was for providing gasoline components to Iran. That helps Iran, because Iran needs gasoline and doesn't refine its own oil.
The other concern has to do with banking, the financial sector, in terms of Iranian banks having access through Venezuelan subsidiaries to get around some of the attempts to control the financial capacity of Iran.
I have not seen the evidence, if any was presented, about some kind of support to the nuclear weaponry issue. I'm not sure what that would be from Venezuela, since they don't have capacity. There is uranium in the ground, but they're not producing yet.
I don't know what evidence there would be, I haven't seen it.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I'm not saying there's support for the nuclear weaponization program; I'm saying there's lack of support for the UN and for the sanctions regime against the nuclear weaponization program, which is somewhat different. Chávez could take the point that since he doesn't believe they're engaged in a nuclear weaponization program, he doesn't have to observe the sanctions regime. I see that as being one of his explanations. I'm just saying that he's not going along with the sanctions regime; I'm not inferring that he's supporting the weaponization program.
There have also been reports that he has been involved in furnishing Syria with diesel oil while Syria is engaged in its assaults on its own people. Do you have any information on that?
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
It's only what I have also read in the press, which was that Venezuela has been sending diesel to Syria.
As I said, I think it's part of this foreign policy strategy of asserting autonomy, of independence, in the same way that he was defending, I think more rhetorically than anything else, Gadhafi until the end.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
On a domestic area issue, I've been somewhat concerned about the independence of the judiciary. We had witness testimony that the absence of an independent judiciary or a less viable judiciary may be contributing to human rights abuses.
Do you have any concern about harassment of the judiciary or intimidation of the judiciary, or the judiciary playing a less than effective role with respect to protecting against human rights abuses?
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
I think perhaps the most prominent case, and the one I'm more familiar with, is the case of the one judge, Judge Afiuni.
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
I did see her when I was there last month in Venezuela. I went to visit her. She is now under house arrest. She had been released from prison.
I think that case, which did not follow due process, also served to intimidate other judges. It's a negative example for independence of the judiciary.
Liberal
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
Yes, we have, through private communications and through my visit.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Would you recommend that parliamentarians such as ourselves be involved in that case?
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
It's always a question about what might have an impact.
I think it's important for governments and parliaments around the world to uphold principles and, for example, rulings of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights, although I would add that it's a bit awkward for both Canada and the United States to press on that issue, since they are not members of that court. That's a bit of a problem for both of our countries in terms of using that avenue, but through our group, the Friends of the Inter-American Democratic Charter, we have certainly tried to uphold that ruling.
I think standing up for principles is important, and certainly the UN's special rapporteur made a lot of statements in favour of Judge Afiuni or about the lack of due process there. I think following along those lines is fine.
Impact, I think, is a different question. I think private communications can sometimes be helpful as well, and that depends on relationships and whether there's a basis for private communications.
Other than that, I'm not sure what further involvement there could be. Issuing statements is really about as much as anyone can do in this situation.
Liberal
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you for being with us today.
My first question relates to this alliance. Can there be a case made that Venezuela is aligning itself with other human rights violators? We've talked about its relationship with Syria, Iran, and perhaps other countries in the region or elsewhere around the world. In your assessment, with the work that you've just mentioned in terms of aiding Iran and laundering money through the Venezuelan banks, is that a role that Venezuela is playing with a number of countries?
A number of years ago there was a reference to this “axis of evil”. I'm not sure if that would apply. I'd love your assessment as to what role they're playing. Are they in the bad boys club? How are they perceived, and who are their allies?
Director, Americas Program, The Carter Center, As an Individual
Well, I think that you have to look at the whole thing much more in political terms, rather than particularly human rights terms or other terms.
In terms of the choice of alliances for Venezuela, as I said, Chávez's main goal, as I read it, has been to increase the autonomy and independence of his own country, of South America, and of the global south, and to create a better balance in the world power structures. As a result, yes, he has sought out friendships with some of the countries that are particularly seen as human rights abusers or authoritarian regimes, and we've mentioned some of those: Belarus, Syria, Libya.
However, at the same time, he has been seeking greater integration within South America, along with Brazil, now along with Mexico, and along with Colombia. Colombia is one of the closest allies of the Untied States within the region. It's a strategy of integration that will create greater independence for Latin America.
He's also been trying to diversity his economy and his trade relationships, moving from a dependence on oil exports to the United States to a much more diverse relationship and trying to build oil exports to China and a pipeline with Colombia.
I think it's much broader. It's not as simple as saying he's creating friendships just with the bad boys or an axis of evil. It's a much broader and more complex strategy than that. The relationships go much further than the bad boys, but that is what we see focused on in the news. It gets our attention and troubles us, yes, but I think you have to look at the strategy in a much broader sense.
