Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 1st, 2012

[Mohamed Lotfy]

There is a presidential candidate running in the election on behalf of the Freedom and Justice Party and he has a very decent chance of winning.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Could you tell me if the military is still using state TV to target minorities like they did with the protest you mentioned in your opening comments?

[Mohamed Lotfy]

I have to say that we, as Amnesty, haven't been assessing the performance of the state TV all the way through, but I'm sure many Egyptian NGOs have been watching carefully the performance of state TV. They are calling for this body to be completely independent so that such incidents as in Maspero don't repeat.

It has to be said that private channels also did broadcast incitements against the Coptic minority, but they also spread a sort of smear campaign against human rights NGOs in general and U.S.-based NGOs. Human rights NGOs in general were stabbed in the back in many ways by being called plotters against the country, trying to divide Egypt or menace its sovereignty, divide the country.

Some commentators have even spoken of weapons and drugs being found in some NGO locals. There is a real smear campaign that has been ongoing for a long time against civil society, and that's not just state TV; it's also some private channels.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

We see this repeated so often in tyrannous regimes: whenever the heat gets too hot for them, they just find another enemy outside the sphere of the argument at play, and they deflect all the pressure that the general populace, the average civilian, has with the regime.

In all of this, then—and I know I'm asking for your opinion—after the presidential elections, what is the likelihood that the military is going to step away and allow parliament and the president to operate? It sounds like every aspect of administration and judiciary and policing is basically run by the military. Is there any hope that they're finally going to let parliament work, let the elected president work?

[Mohamed Lotfy]

It's obviously a political analysis that I need to give that might not be an Amnesty comment as such, but there are very serious doubts about the military handing genuine power to a civilian-elected parliament or president. It is assumed among analysts in Egypt that the military would remain a key political actor, if not an actor with a veto power almost over the government and the president's power. There might be a handover of power to a civilian rule in form, but in substance it is to be expected that the military council will still have a strong say over many aspects of political life in Egypt.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chair, I don't have any more questions, but certainly the international community should have really grave concerns about the fact that nothing is changing. In fact, if anything, the military seems to be frozen onto power, and even those parties that are represented are not wanting to say that they're going to stand by human rights, and specifically women's rights. I'm terribly concerned.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

I agree.

Mr. Cotler, go ahead.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to welcome the witness. It's a pleasure to have somebody with your experience and expertise before us. I want to take up an issue that arose from some of the answers to the questions.

You referred to the 12,000 prisoners in the post-Mubarak era, actually more prisoners in the post-Mubarak era than in all the years of Mubarak. I don't want to sanitize Mubarak on this issue. One of the first political prisoners was Maikel Nabil, whom Amnesty adopted as a prisoner of conscience. This relates to your other comment about the importance of freedom of expression, because basically his freedom of expression was criminalized. Having said that the army and the people are no longer of one hand after first referring to them being of one hand, he was tried and convicted before the military tribunal of insulting the Egyptian military. Happily, after 120 days of a hunger strike, which he survived, he was released.

It so happens that Maikel Nabil is a Christian Copt. He's not a practising Christian Copt, but I have two questions, the first to which I think I know the answer but I'd rather get it from you. Was the fact that he was a Christian Copt part of the reason why he may have been targeted by the Egyptian authorities? I don't think so, but it's a question I would ask.

The second question is, did the fact that he was a Christian Copt account for the less than what might have been widespread support for his release? I did not sense that within the Egyptian populace there was the kind of support system for his case and cause as there might have been.

Those are my questions on that issue. If there's time, I'll put another question to you.

[Mohamed Lotfy]

To answer your first question, we agree with the fact that he is a Copt, although perhaps not practising, but I don't think that played into getting him arrested for what he said or wrote and then being tried militarily.

Indeed, he is not the only prisoner of conscience. There were other people arrested before he was and also after that. For example, earlier I mentioned the actor. He's not in prison because he still can appeal the decision; he's out on bail.

But that is just to say that the system is there to crush dissenting views and opinions. Without a change and without serious amendments to the penal code, Copts and Muslims—and anybody—can indeed find themselves in prison for expressing their views against human rights violations, but also for generally expressing their views about social, religious, and economic phenomena in Egypt in general.

To answer your second question about the sympathy towards Maikel Nabil, I think Maikel Nabil was sentenced very early on when a lot of people still believed that the military were indeed one hand of the people. It took a long time to demystify the simplistic view of the position of the military council. This might account for some of the lack of sympathy towards Maikel's case in the very beginning. That's my view of it.

I think Maikel has gained a lot of confidence and is coming out stronger from this case. He is currently pursuing his work to actually end forced conscription into the Egyptian army, to allow conscientious objectors not to be recruited into the army. He has come out of prison stronger than before and remains a noticeable activist in Egypt.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Do I have more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Actually, you're out of time.

Ms. Grewal, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for your time and your presentations.

The treatment of Coptic Christians in Egypt has been an issue of particular concern to many residents in my riding for some time now. In December, the subcommittee heard from Alex Neve, the secretary general of Amnesty International Canada, on the persecution of the Coptic Christian community in Egypt.

I understand that the Egyptian military and the security forces have killed more than 100 protesters in the past five months. These protesters were, for the most part, peaceful. They were demonstrating and chanting. In particular, of course, there was the gruesome Maspero incident, where the Egyptian security forces used military vehicles to literally run over Coptic Christian protesters.

Amnesty International has repeatedly called for reform of the security forces and an end to the impunity they enjoy in dealing with protesters. Has any progress been made in the security forces upholding the right to peaceful assembly and in policing demonstrations in line with international standards? In your view, how will recent political developments in Egypt impact the religious minority communities?

My other question is about testimony the subcommittee has heard relating to forced conversions of Christian children in Egypt. Do you believe such practices occur? If so, could you explain why forced conversions would occur? That is something that is really very disturbing.

[Mohamed Lotfy]

On the first question, whether there have been changes in the way the police and the riot police operate, I think it's fair to say that there hasn't been genuine will, whether from the military council or certainly from the government, to drastically reform the tool of repression that Mubarak has been using against political opponents and against the people in general.

Torture continues in some police stations, but also there are some cases of death in custody in prisons. Protesters have been tortured and ill-treated in prisons by the military, by the police. To give you an anecdote, one of the protesters from the 6 April movement, one of the pro-democracy movements, was detained in February after protests in Cairo in February 2012. When he was transferred to the prison south of Cairo, he said he was told, “Welcome to Guantanamo”. That's just to tell you how the impunity and the immunity that the security sector is benefiting from so far, from the violations that continue to occur, is not going to push security agents or workers to respect human rights.

On your second question, about development in the region, I understand this as the mounting forces of political Islam, perhaps, and if this is affecting Copts or...?

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Are the political developments in Egypt impacting the religious minorities there? That's what I want to know.

[Mohamed Lotfy]

Yes, it is definitely worrying to the Coptic community in Egypt, although I don't want to speak on behalf of that community. It's a large and diverse community that has many ways of putting forward their own cause and demands. Some of them would prefer to remain campaigning at the local level because they would obtain better results this way. Some of them would like to internationalize their case and put peer pressure, government pressure, on them. So we have to bear this in mind when speaking globally of the Coptic community.

I think it's fair for Amnesty to say that the Coptic community feels threatened, or at least some members of it feel threatened, from the mounting discourse against them, against their freedoms: their freedom to worship, to meet, to assemble at mass on Christmas Eve and New Year's. The track record of the security forces shows that they are not providing protection. I think it's the obligation of the state to protect a community from attacks by individuals and non-state actors. That responsibility is the state's.

On forced conversions of Christian children, I haven't personally heard of that. Amnesty has not researched the matter, so I don't want to say yes or no on whether it's happening or not. It may be happening in individual cases, but the question is how much of a system—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Wayne Marston]

I'm going to have to ask you to wrap that up. We're a minute over on Ms. Grewal's time.

Monsieur Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here this afternoon.

Mr. Lotfy, if I understand correctly, the army has near-total control over Egypt's Coptic community. Do the rest of Egyptians stand behind the aspirations of the Coptic community, and acknowledge that it is a community that is part of Egypt's history and culture?

[Mohamed Lotfy]

First of all, I think the army has control, has power over the whole country and all Egyptians, not only Copts. Regarding the second part of your question, whether Copts have sympathy from the rest of the people, I would say that there have been a number of attempts to divide Muslims and Copts in Egypt. There have been several sectarian attacks in certain neighbourhoods, poor ones in general. There is tension between communities in some villages. That being said, we are far from reaching a point where the two communities no longer tolerate each other. There is a great deal of respect between the two communities. They understand that they share the same fate and the same destiny. They demonstrate together, in fact, and some political parties... The Freedom and Justice Party even included members from other parties who are Copts on its voters lists. It is state repression that pushes things to such a point that communities feel threatened and turn inward to protect themselves from others. The 18 days during which we saw national unity against repression were the best demonstration that this country is united and lives in the spirit of the people.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I have a question related to the one I just asked. Given that control, what position should Canada take toward the Egyptian army? What can Canada do to encourage Egypt, to urge it to respect and protect the rights of the Coptic minority?

[Mohamed Lotfy]

Canada, like several other countries that have a very respectable human rights record, is seen as such in the world, but doesn't necessarily have the political authority to impose an immediate economic change. However, Canada has the authority, the moral credibility so to speak, to be able to talk about human rights and teach lessons to other countries on them. There is a lot to say to and discuss with Egyptian diplomacy within that framework. I invite you to read the Agenda for Change for Egypt that we published immediately after Mubarak left power. The document has a large number of recommendations concerning human rights in Egypt, including the end of discrimination, and allowing the construction of churches for Copts. It also recommends the end of discrimination against officials within the Egyptian state structure where, in general, Copts are underrepresented, as is the case in some sectors of security, for example.

We think it is very important, for reasons of faith in human rights and for diplomatic reasons, that the interlocutor of Egyptians be on solid ground if it is to teach them about human rights. We have seen how difficult it is to address the issue of human rights with the Egyptian government, to prove to it that there are violations and to get it to recognize them. One of the methods the Egyptian government uses to avoid that is to tell us that other countries do the same thing or something similar. It just looks for excuses by using what is done in other countries to justify its own violations.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Merci, Monsieur Jacob.

We want to thank both our witnesses today. This completes the questions from the committee. We are very grateful to you both for coming and making the time to bring your expertise to us. Thank you.

Committee members, I'm going to suspend now. We're going to go in camera and carry on with some committee business.

[Proceedings continue in camera]