Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 10th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

That completes that set of questions and answers.

Mr. Sweet, you're next.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Davis, thank you very much for the good work you've done and for your testimony today. We greatly appreciate it, and greatly appreciate getting your perspective on this situation, not only as it's gone on over the years but also currently. I'm glad that you have some very recent observations from Burma.

I've asked a similar question of every witness. You made the statement here, “The Government of Burma has done much to convince the international community that it has changed, but it has yet to convince its own people.” We had some representatives of Parliament who were on the ground when the elections happened and talked directly to people. Their report to me was that people were quite positive and hopeful. Aung San Suu Kyi herself welcomed the relaxing of sanctions.

Just help me here with why these conflicting messages from people who are on the ground—this isn't government spin—and your observations.

[William Davis]

I would agree with what your MPs saw on the ground during the elections, certainly in central Burma, where the people of Burman ethnicity, in Rangoon and in Mandalay and surrounding areas, are feeling the change. This is where you can get Suu Kyi T-shirts. This is where you can get international newspapers now. There was Internet access before the changes happened, but apparently the Internet is much faster now and less censored. You can now get BBC and things like that. So changes have happened in the central parts.

When I say that the Burmese people have yet to feel the change, I'm talking about the 15% who are ethnic minorities, and maybe also people in the Burman areas who don't live in urban areas, who are still out in the villages. For them, life is going on; they're still growing their rice, and they haven't seen much difference.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

They're also out of the way of the mainstream media that tends to be there.

[William Davis]

Yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

So there would be less effectiveness in reporting.

[William Davis]

A lot of visits from international people are.... MPs are busy people. If you go to Burma, you don't have weeks and weeks to spend looking at the whole country. As well, journalists from major newspapers usually go to a couple of major cities, and Naypyidaw, and then go out. They haven't visited ethnic areas.

Probably also the Burmese would discourage that. I don't know how hard people have tried, but it would be interesting to see, if someone were requesting a visit to Kachin state or to Karen state, what that response would be.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Are you aware, either from your own experience on the ground or from the sources you have there who seem to be accurate, whether the international Red Cross has access to those political detainees, whether they're in recognized institutions or other places? Do they have full and unfettered access?

[William Davis]

As far as I know, the international Red Cross pulled out of Burma several years ago, because they were not able to get access. I heard that within the last year, they sent a team to do a water and sanitation assessment of a prison. They also visited another prison. This is baby stepping into having more access.

I'm not completely knowledgeable about this. It is what I know to the best of my knowledge.

I would say that they probably do not.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Davis.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to give the remainder of my time to my colleague.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Mr. Davis, you mentioned in your opening statement that you had written a report, Under Siege in Kachin State, Burma, and that you had submitted it for our consideration. Could you just elaborate on what you found as you did research on Kachin state?

[William Davis]

Sure.

My main project in the last year has been a population survey in Karen state, similar to what we did in Chin state. Currently I'm analyzing data on that.

Fighting in Kachin state broke out a year ago, in June. We were hearing from local groups on the ground reports of rape, reports of villages being burned, and reports of a lot of human rights violations and a lot of displaced civilians. We had been pressuring aid organizations to go in to provide aid, but either they weren't asking the Burmese government enough or the Burmese government was saying no. This isn't yet clear.

So I decided to visit Kachin to do an emergency report. I went to China and met with Kachin Independence Organization people. We crossed into Kachin state to where the KIO territory is. We don't go through where the Burmese government is.

I had two goals for that report. One was to do a quick humanitarian assessment of displaced people. So I went to Laiza, which is the KIO capital, and I saw maybe 10,000 displaced people living in warehouses and in an abandoned marketplace. They were starting to build refugee camps, but they didn't really have the resources to do a complete job.

We did a quick nutrition assessment of children under five. You can measure their middle upper arm, and based on previous research, you can tell if the children are malnourished. I think we found that 11% had some kind of malnourishment. Given the high prevalence of diarrhea and upper respiratory infections in the camps, the WHO would consider that situation severe, and it would warrant monitoring and intervention.

The other thing I did was interview displaced people about human rights violations. I talked about this in the testimony. I talked to the old man who was forced to walk in front of a platoon of Burmese troops and sweep for mines. Other people were forced to porter. They talked about their villages being burned. Everyone said that their food was stolen by the Burmese army.

There are hard copies of this report here somewhere. We released it in December.

On the China side, I saw maybe 500 Kachin refugees, because they'd crossed the border, living in old sawmills and things. Since then, the number of displaced people has grown to about 70,000.

The UN was blocked from delivering aid. Then they were allowed to go in once, in December. They sent two trucks full of blankets and were there for two days and then left. If you read the reports, they're a little bit misleading. It sounds as if they were there for longer. This is one thing we are advocating for.

Last month, the Burmese government said that they gave the UN unimpeded access, but I haven't heard what kind of aid they're delivering. I know that they sent some food, but they also need medicine and things to build shelters and things like this. The rainy season is about to start, and that's when disease is going to spread a lot faster.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Normally, we would go to our Liberal member, but she's not here, so I think what makes sense is to just continue with Madam Grewal.

Madam Grewal, you would be next in the rotation. We'll then go to Monsieur Jacob, and if we have time, I'd like to go back to Mr. Hiebert, because I have a sense that he has a couple more questions.

Go ahead, Ms. Grewal, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Davis, for your presentation.

In your report you discussed in detail some of the human rights violations committed by the Burmese army, violations such as rape of civilians, the use of human shields to guide combat units, forced labour to carry supplies for combat troops, the pillaging of civilian property, indiscriminate firing into civilian villages, and forced displacement, to name a few. You explained that as long as the Burmese army continues to commit human rights violations against civilians, the Government of Burma cannot be trusted to fulfill the obligations of human rights protections. Canada wants to support positive change in Burma, but it is clear that an investigation is needed to understand and stop these gross violations.

Mr. Davis, can you give a recommendation to the Government of Canada advocating constitutional reforms that enable the civilian government to hold the military accountable? How would you recommend Canada exert its international influence to accomplish this goal, when it is clear that the Burmese government does not have a strong hold over its army?

[William Davis]

That's a very good question.

This is another solution that's going to take time and not happen overnight. A lot of the international news stories want to make it sound as though suddenly everything in Burma is fine, but this country has had abuses for so long that the process will take a while.

This goes back to the previous question about how, if the constitution gives this much power to the military and it's written in such a way that it essentially can never be changed, you could change it, and I don't have a good easy answer for that.

I think there are a couple of things. I think if Burma is on this true path of reform, people will see benefits, people in power will see benefits and the middle class in Rangoon and Mandalay will see benefits, and this will start pushing and supporting more reforms. So there has been a carrot-and-stick approach with sanctions, and sanctions will be maintained until different indicators are met. Those indicators, I think, should include stopping human rights violations.

I think engagement and training are also important. Again, in the military, soldiers are trained in a certain way, and they're trained to execute in a certain way and to do things as they've been trained. I think they need to be retrained, and I think this is also a role for the international community.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The rest of my time, Mr. Chair, I'll pass on to my colleague.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Okay.

Mr. Jacob, your turn.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your expertise and analysis.

You seemed to be saying that the Burmese army had a stranglehold on the civilian government. Do you expect things to change in the near future? What is the best way to strengthen the civilian government's control over the army?

[William Davis]

Thank you. That's an excellent question.

The army certainly does have a hold on the civil government. Will it change? To answer that, I can only say that I hope so, but I can't be sure.

It has to do with the power structure and whether the army or the individual commanders feel they can maintain their power and security if a change happens. I am not a political scientist, so I can't give good recommendations on how that can happen.

The other problem is that a lot of these commanders have committed human rights violations. If Burma needs to come to terms with its past, there are a lot of different ways to do this, but at the very least these commanders are not going to look good. They're not going to want that to happen, so it's a very difficult situation.

Continuing to push for a change, beginning to empower civil society groups and community-based organizations.... Historically in Burma there have been a lot of laws on the books to crush civil society. Even when Cyclone Nargis happened, there was no help coming in. Villagers organized themselves like volunteer firemen to go help, and they were thrown in prison for that. That was in the past.

In the future, if there were a stronger civil society, that would help to bring more power to civilians and to shift it from the military.

What can we do to push for this? We can continue to support community-based organizations. There are more fledgling ones in the interior of the country, which I think are good to support. But there's an extremely strong civil society in all the ethnic states and on the borders, because they've been forced to take care of themselves for this time.

Because I live right across the border from Karen state, I know this area well and I work closely with the exiled Karen health department, with the Back Pack Health Worker Team, and with the Mae Tao Clinic. These groups, in Karen state, are serving more than 300,000 people in their clinical catchment areas. They have had training from outside. They have a different perspective. It's really important to continue to support this.

Maybe I should mention now that there's one Canadian organization that's donating a lot of money. Inter Pares has been funding a lot of border health activities, and I'd like to thank them for that.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

Are Burma's government institutions and judiciary able to regulate commercial activity in the interests of the Burmese people and enforce the laws of the state in a fair and independent manner? That does not seem to be the case. In that event, what are the biggest deficiencies as far as priorities go? I know you made recommendations, and your report paints a pretty negative picture. There are still many things in the country that need to change. How can the situation be improved? In other words, where do you start?

[William Davis]

This is another good question.

To answer your first question on whether they are able to regulate commercial activity, I think the answer is no.

The judiciary is not independent from the rest of the government. There's been corruption there for so long, and this is how they've been operating for so long, that it's difficult to change this right away.

There needs to be support and education to change the way things are. I know there's a lot of talk about exchange programs being set up with professionals in education coming to other countries to see how things are done differently. That's another way to do it.

What are the priorities? Definitely establishing an independent judiciary would be a big step.

Another problem with commercial activity is that it's so intertwined with cronies of the previous regime and with the military that it's going to be a difficult process. As I said earlier, a lot of extractive industries are in ethnic areas. Mining companies have worked there in collaboration with the military. The military allows them in and provides security. One way Burma pays its military commanders is to let them make a profit off what they're extracting.

This is a difficult system to change, but it needs to be changed. The Burma army is using forced labour and is forcing people off their lands in these areas with impunity. Whenever these companies are partnered with the army, I'm afraid these things are going to happen, whether or not the companies want them to.

That would be one start, and I think the judiciary would be the other.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I am going to give the rest of my time to Ms. Péclet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We have a little extra time, so why don't we go with you first, and we'll see if anybody else wants to take a question.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You've just mentioned that there are some mining companies that give money to the....

[William Davis]

That's probably not official, and I'm not the expert on this. EarthRights International has done a lot of work on how these relationships work and what's happening. It's mostly Chinese companies now. Unocal and Total were also operating there.