Evidence of meeting #40 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was constitution.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

James Paul Humphries  Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International
Hkaw Win Humphries  Teacher, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

We are ready to begin.

I call to order the 40th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, on May 29, 2012.

We are continuing to engage in a study on human rights in Burma.

Before I announce the witnesses I'll just mention that we're televised today. We will not be televised on Thursday, however.

Our witnesses today are both from Project L.A.M.B.S. International. We have James Paul Humphries, who is the founder and director. I apologize, the one thing I didn't get a chance to do was get the correct pronunciation, but I'll try here. We also have Hkaw Win Humphries.

They are going to testify and then we'll go to questions.

We invite you to begin. Thank you very much.

1:05 p.m.

James Paul Humphries Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

Honourable members of the Canadian House of Commons Subcommittee on Human Rights, we are grateful to be here because we want to tell you our story and express our concerns for the Kachin people in the land of Myanmar or Burma.

The Jinghpaw people, also known as the Kachin or mountain people, are one of 135 people groups that create a diverse population in the country, which numbers over 55 million. Like many of their tribal brothers—the Shan, the Chin, the Karen—all these mountain people have gone through many years of what could readily be categorized as crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.

The Kachin themselves number about two million people. They live in the northern division, called Kachin state, and they were granted statehood by both the British government and by the early leadership of the country of Burma, under the Panglong Agreement, February 12, 1947, known today as Union Day. But only months after this agreement was signed the leaders, including General Aung San, the father of Aung San Suu Kyi, and many of his cabinet ministers, were assassinated during their meeting in Rangoon on July 19, 1947.

Independence from Britain came on January 4, 1948, and statehood granted to the Kachin on January 10, 1948. U Nu, first prime minister in 1948, led the country off and on until 1960. It was during this time that various Kachin armies were formed. General Ne Win seized power in 1961, and from that date till 1988 the Kachin were still under a form of democracy-dictatorship. But soon after Aung San Suu Kyi's landslide election win in 1991, the military regime under Saw Maung took over, arresting and jailing both her and her cabinet, as well as many of the National League for Democracy supporters. A short time later, in 1992, Than Shwe became the country's leader, with his generals. He has been the main leader for the last 20 years.

These last two leaders have dealt out much death and destruction to all people groups who would oppose them. Just two examples are the student movement of 1996 and the monk marches and demonstrations of 2007. Heavy-handed tactics have been used against the Kayah, the Karen, the Chin, Pao, Rakhine, Shan, Mon, Kachin, and Wa peoples, resulting in hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing to many countries of the world. In addition, the killing, maltreatment, and raping of hundreds of thousands more has gone unchecked. Even today, after the recent election of 2010 and the by-election of 2012, these terrible events are still taking place throughout the country.

Yes, there have been many positive things taking place in Yangon and in Naypyidaw, but this is only a ruse, the purpose being to have the world lift sanctions that, in turn, will place more money into the hands of these criminals, known by the citizens as the military regime, under Than Shwe. Do not be fooled. Than Shwe still controls the country's constitution, the military, resources, and the elected government of Thein Sein.

The country of Burma or Myanmar has had several constitutions over the years, one in 1947 that was more British in nature, another in 1974 more socialist-communist in nature, and the latest in 2008, more army dictatorship-democratic in nature. The new constitution, that we are told was approved by a 96% vote, is a curious admixture of U.S. and British styles of government, along with a mystifying dictatorship-democratic reality, leading to much confusion as to what is meant in a country that is supposedly based on federalism.

Aung San Suu Kyi said that if you were to put on a scale of one to 10 the people's understanding of federalism, it would be a one. Also, I would think, on a similar scale, their understanding of what the constitution is all about and what it says about human rights would be a minus five. The constitution gives a large amount of power to the Commander-in-Chief of the Defence Services. Almost all major decisions by the elected government, as well as decisions made by the president, must go through the commander-in-chief. The military holds over 25% of the seats and they are personally filled by the commander-in-chief.

The constitution is meant to be the supreme rule for guiding the people in making and understanding the laws of the land; however, the judicial system, including the supreme court, is living and operating under a formidable cloud of fear. Others within the judicial system have been appointed by the military and operate under their influence.

From the local to the state level, and especially in the mountain states, for example, Kachin state, there is great confusion concerning the various roles of government. The military pays little attention to what the government, or central command in the capital city, appears to say. It still all boils down to the commander-in-chief, and what he and his astrologers desire. The commander-in-chief acts most often as if he is the supreme leader, the king of the country. The new capital city, Naypyidaw, is designed, just like in olden times, to symbolize his power and authority over the people.

It is important to know that the commander-in-chief can at any time suspend the constitution for up to two years and also can dissolve the parliament at any time if he perceives the need to do so. The main reason for this powerful leverage is that the constitution is upheld and protected. This provision, of course, protects him and his position.

1:15 p.m.

Hkaw Win Humphries Teacher, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

The constitution lists many positive rights for the people. For example, included are freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom to travel anywhere in the country, and the enjoyment of equal rights between peoples, with no discrimination allowed. Women too are protected to the extent that they are to have the same rights and salaries as men.

However, the constitution also takes away a variety of other rights. For example, religious leaders cannot vote. They cannot be part of a local party, and they cannot apply for a government office. Contrary to the constitution's freedoms, there is limited freedom of movement. Travellers have to register everywhere they go, and they must check in, even if they have been invited to stay overnight at a relative's or friend's house. Travellers constantly are having to go through checkpoints, and are often followed and observed by the MI wherever they go.

The basic problem appears to be that the implications of the constitution have never been clarified or even defined. Broad statements are used, statements that can be interpreted in many different ways, but all apparently designed so that the president and commander-in-chief are protected.

The reality of today is that people are being imprisoned with no opportunity to defend themselves in a court of law. People's property is being taken away from them. Their ethnic language, culture, and tradition are all being stripped away by force. The military enforces child labour, using children as porters and soldiers. There is no right to assemble. The military forbids gathering in groups of more than three to five people. So-called freedom of religion is greatly controlled by the government. In practice, there is a very real policy of fear and intimidation at all levels.

Finally, people do not have freedom to vote as they choose. They are sometimes rounded up like cattle, brought to the voting stations, and told to vote in a certain way. If they refuse to vote properly, as instructed, they are subject to fines and community unpaid labour.

A major challenge is that those local leaders desiring to form political parties are not allowed to do so. Most often there is no such thing as an opposition. They will tolerate public world figures such as Aung San Suu Kyi and a prominent party such as the NLD, but only when it works in their favour and gives world opinion of them a lift. The only leaders allowed to form political parties are those who have favourable attitudes to the government and the military. At any time, the government or military can deny the right of any area of the country to run candidates or even to vote. This happened as recently as this year in the whole of Kachin state, denying two million people their democratic right to cast a ballot.

1:15 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

The jail houses hundreds of political prisoners. Of course—

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Sorry, I'm just going to stop you there for a minute.

I just wanted to let you know that you're two pages into a six-page presentation that I think will take up all of our available time, and you've just used up your 10 minutes. I'm just wondering if you could summarize the rest quite briefly and then we'd go to questions and answers. All the information you have here will, of course, be entered into the record. By getting some questions and your answers to them, it will allow us to get more information than we'll get if we simply go through a presentation.

Would that be okay with you?

1:15 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

That would be fine, as long as I could make some recommendations on the last page, at least, for sure.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Sure.

Do you want to do that now? Or should we save some time at the very end of the presentation to make sure those recommendations get in?

May 29th, 2012 / 1:15 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

I can cut it here a little bit and get to where we need to get to quickly.

I just wanted to drop down to the bottom of that page to state and draw to your attention that human trafficking, AIDS, persecution, the drug trade, child enslavement, adult slavery, political prisoners, and so on and so forth, are still quite prominent within the country. Also, there is the lack of open doors for the UN and NGOs to enter the country and to help out.

Under the present-day situation, the Kachin are constantly going through a variety of challenges, which you can see in points one to five, which my wife was going to read, but will not, I guess, at this point. Some of the things that have brought up the challenges are concerning the dam and concerning the Panglong Agreement, which was to state, for them, the idea of federalism.

As we go over to the next page, it states that the war, up to this point, has created over 75,000 internally displaced people. There is a concern for the need for food, clothing, and medicine. Again, the NGOs are not able to get into those places and bring help, like they should, so there are many people who are not able to get food and meet their needs.

I would like to read the recommendations, Mr. Chairman, and then conclude.

First is to strongly encourage the Government of Myanmar to use the Panglong Agreement as a foundation for further discussion in building the road for future peace and harmony within the various ethnic groups.

Second is to offer assistance to the new Myanmar government, in working with Aung San Suu Kyi, to clearly define and implement federalism and to show how it will work throughout the whole of the country.

Third is to encourage the Government of Myanmar to truly commit to the new constitution and to a timeline to help change the constitution, so that it will lean more towards democracy.

Fourth is to advocate with the Government of Myanmar to restore law and order equally throughout the country and to implement, without prejudice, the role of judges and the supreme court.

Fifth is to assist the Government of Myanmar to understand that diversity within a country is not a hindrance, but a blessing.

Sixth is to encourage Myanmar's leaders to truly open the door to freedom of expression, freedom of religion, and freedom to be part of the global community, and to express the need to be free from their fears.

Seventh is to strongly encourage their government to allow not only religious freedom for the people but for the religious leaders to be allowed the right to vote, the right to have membership in a political party, and the freedom to run for political office.

Eighth is to stress that the government put an immediate end to the 20 years of crimes against humanity, war crimes, genocide, and ethnic cleansing that have been going on systematically against the Kayah, Karen, Chin, Pao, Rakhine, Shan, Mon, Kachin, and Wa people.

Our hope is that all the citizens of Myanmar will be able to take their rightful place as citizens of the world, our global village. We hope that all the citizens of Myanmar will not focus on the faults of others but will encourage the potential for all to grow and mature as truly free people.

Our prayer is that the leaders of Myanmar would look beyond their individualism and rather look at their role as a community of leaders who help their citizens succeed as each one uses their gifting and talents under the watchful eye of God Almighty.

We implore you, as a subcommittee on international human rights, to take our concerns to the Canadian government so that the information would become part of a report. This report would be used to show how we as a people called Canadians will respond to the country of Myanmar, its leaders, and its peoples. We ask that human rights violations that are being carried out against their people be addressed. We seek nothing more than our demonstration, as Canadians, to Myanmar that we are willing to help them succeed on their journey of becoming a full-fledged democracy.

Thank for your time, interest, and concern about this issue of human rights.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you very much, both of you.

What we'll do now is go to the question-and-answer period. First up is Mr. Hiebert.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

Thank you, Dr. Humphries and Hkaw Win for joining us today. I appreciate your being willing to testify. Your testimony was cut short because of the limited amount of time we have at this committee. It often happens where we have witnesses who have a lot to say, but we only meet for one hour twice a week, and we have to jam as much as we can into that time.

Before asking some questions, I thought I might provide you with a couple of minutes to highlight anything you didn't get a chance to say. I'm thinking of the list dealing with the hardships that the country faces. You made reference to human trafficking.

1:20 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

This is a document that we worked on extensively with several other doctors to try to get as much information as possible into your hands. Women and children are being taken into Thailand and China for cheap labour. In Myanmar women are being taken into China, because in China there is a birth imbalance between boys and girls. There is a large population of boys in China, and now they are harvesting, so to speak, women to be brought into China, legally and illegally, as wives for these husbands.

The AIDS epidemic is horrendous in the northern part. The drug trade has always been quite extensive in both northern Thailand and Myanmar, where it is used as currency. A lot of people are involved in drugs in those areas. I mean, there is much more. I could go on for hours.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

You mentioned a fair bit about the constitution and the imbalances and anomalies in that document. In your recommendations you called for a change to the constitution. How do you think that could come about, considering that the government is controlled by the military and they have a mandated number of seats in the Parliament?

1:25 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

I think it's going to have to come from inside. I've taken time to study the constitution. Unfortunately, it is built around the needs of the military and it protects them. It gives a lot of freedoms and rights in words, but none of this is carried out. There are all kinds of things. For example, they say they have freedom of religion, but my wife as a minister and my friend as a pastor cannot vote. How is that a democracy when you can't vote?

They say in the constitution that anyone can put together a party, but when we put up parties to be part of the government system, they disallow them. They say you have the freedom to vote, but then they turn around whenever it's convenient and remove that freedom. The constitution allows them to do that.

They also have the power to suspend the constitution and the government at any time, for up to two years. It's all in there. It has legally been voted on. This is the book now. The problem is that it doesn't deal with ethnic groups and stuff.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

In previous testimony we heard a fair bit about the conflict in Kachin state. They had a 17-year ceasefire that ended last year. In your recommendations, you reference the Panglong Agreement. Do you think there is broad support from regions other than Kachin state for a return to a federal model within the government?

1:25 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

I believe that, right from the end of World War II when they signed that agreement, there were many ethnic groups. The British government gave many of the major ethnic groups statehood, and on the basis of statehood, they all were to unite as a federal group.

If you look at their old flag, it has 14 stars—seven represent the states and seven represent the divisions. They are in a circle and the idea is that as individual groups they would become one as a federation or a union. But under the military regime it became a central government, and all the other groups have been left out.

Now they have changed the flag to one star and that one star causes a lot of dissension because this says to a lot of people, we now have a central government and the central government will control everything. The lack of the 14 stars has shown them that all their ability to be part of what's going on has been taken away.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

That's your five minutes, Mr. Hiebert.

Mr. Marston, please.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to our guests.

My understanding of the situation in this country is that it's been an awfully long time since there was any sense of any kind of democracy. You illustrated the flag and symbolism of that to the people, but very clearly the constitution's positioned in a way that the commander-in-chief really controls the country as—I think you referenced him as a king. That's the harsh reality. I'm astounded to hear that the official government of a country would spread AIDS. I'm not doubting your word. I'm saying that this is one of the most horrific diseases for the damage it does to cultures and people, if they're not treated and quarantined and cared for properly.

I want to say from the official opposition's point of view, the recommendations that you have here are very simple things to support. I don't want to diminish what they are because they're valuable and their intent is very good. They speak to the essence of democracy, and I don't see that we would have any problem with that.

I'm curious. There was a ceasefire for 17 years. Who broke the ceasefire?

1:30 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

The Burmese did.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

The government.

1:30 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

This is the whole play of words here. It's like, who's who? The Burmese are often defined as a people group, the plains people; the Kachin are the mountain people; the Karen are the mountain people—

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I understand that, sir. That's why I deliberately asked the question because I knew the answer.

1:30 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

James Paul Humphries

The Kachin had their armies on their bases as they have for 40 years—

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I'm not looking for a lengthy description, I was giving you the opportunity to put on record here that the government forces broke that—

1:30 p.m.

Founder and Director, Project L.A.M.B.S. International

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

That was the purpose of my question. So, Than Shwe is still in control.