Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on May 29th, 2012

[James Paul Humphries]

Yes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

One of the things that I noted before, relative to China, is that you have a certain movement in Beijing toward a potential of some form of democracy, but when you go further out into the country, there's a huge disconnect. I suspect it's the same thing, you're talking about the military having little kingdoms in the rural areas. Other countries have had a real problem with police. Is there a police force, or is it all military?

[James Paul Humphries]

I only lived in the city of Myitkyina, which is the capital of Kachin state. It has a police force, but they also have a large military force.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Does the police force function in lockstep with the military as if there's no real difference?

[James Paul Humphries]

They would be more like traffic lights, making sure the general, basic—

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Just the comings and goings....

[James Paul Humphries]

But they have an MI, which is military intelligence. They're the guys who deal with all these other kinds of things on behalf of the military.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

In every country where people are repressed, there's always that force.

[James Paul Humphries]

Right.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

They have a number of different names for them. We've heard from witnesses that the government doesn't really have control over the military. This is obvious from your statements here; you're matching that. You agree with that statement because your whole testimony has said the same thing that other witnesses have said.

If there's no change to effective civilian control over the military, can you say that things will remain pretty well the same, that the repression won't end? Is there any sense at all of a move to allow civilian authorities? When Aung San Suu Kyi was elected, the expectations and hopes of the western world went up. I'm sure they did to some degree within the country. But in real terms, what are the chances of something happening in a positive way?

[James Paul Humphries]

As I say in the statement, the people, in general, have a positive hope that things will eventually change. Fortunately, a lot of these military regime-type people are older people, and eventually change will come. The demographics of the country are such that the youth are eventually going to outnumber the regular, run-of-the-mill people.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Do you think it will take an armed revolution, or is there a chance of having an Arab Spring type of situation?

[James Paul Humphries]

There is a date coming up that is very critical. That is June 10. As I mentioned in my report, many of the other ethnic groups that have a ceasefire have said that if things aren't completely dealt with concerning the Kachin people and they move their armies back, the ceasefires of many of the other armed groups will be torn up. They will join together, and this whole thing could explode.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Is there a sense that the balance between the military and the young groups is like David and Goliath?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

It has to be a really short answer, because we're out of time. You have to wrap up so we can go to another questioner.

[James Paul Humphries]

There is a sense of that, but the thing is that the valley people aren't able to fight as well in the mountains, where the mountain people are much more aggressive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Sweet, you are next.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to some testimony that is troubling. You've mentioned it, and Mr. Marston mentioned it as well.

Do you have clear evidence that the government has actually sponsored the transfer of AIDS-infected people to spread AIDS? Is that something for which you have substantial evidence?

[James Paul Humphries]

Other than that some of the NGO doctors who are in the area—I would prefer not to mention who they are, but you could probably figure out who some of them are—have substantiated that because of the amount of AIDS that has broken out....

The challenge we run into is which comes first, the cart or the horse. A lot of the people who are not wanted in the central part of the country have been moved to the northern part of the country. A lot of them who have been drug addicts, people with AIDS, and people with alcohol problems have been brought to the south, which has put an extreme burden, the NGOs have told me, on health care. Some of these NGOs have stated that the AIDS epidemic there is probably one of the worst in the world. I probably cannot bring you a government document that says that they have forcibly moved people up there. But my wife and others, who will testify later on this week, can verify that this event has taken place, because they are non-Kachin people. If you are Kachin, you can tell that they are non-Kachin people who have moved there, with no jobs or anything. So what was the purpose of their being moved there?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

That transfer is not done on their own volition. This is by government transfer.

[James Paul Humphries]

It is by transfer, and also, the government takes away land from the Kachin and other people and then moves these peoples into those areas.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

With regard to government persecution, is the religious repression you talked about more acute for the predominantly Christian population of Kachin state, or does it go across all religious lines, no matter what religion someone follows?

[James Paul Humphries]

Again, there are different levels of persecution. One is at all levels of religion. If you are a cleric, which I mentioned, or a pastor, or even a Buddhist monk, you cannot vote, and you cannot hold a position in the government. You cannot form a government party. That is all stated in here. That is a form of persecution.

The second part is that most of the mountain people are Christian. Canada has brought in thousands of Karen people from the refugee camps in Thailand. A lot of them are Christian. This is a problem for the Karen that has been going on for 60 years. For the Kachin, it has been going on for 50 years.

Again, are they being persecuted because they are Kachin, or are they being persecuted because they are Christian? I believe that a lot of the problems are not because of either. I think they are persecuted because the Kachin people sit on one of the largest natural resource areas of the world, and everybody wants the natural resources—the gold, the teak—underneath the ground and above the ground.

As I mentioned to someone else, it is almost like a three-legged stool. There is the Kachin, then there is the religion, and then there are the resources. What is happening is that there's a lot of heavy things happening on the resource side.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes. This, Mr. Humphries, is going to be one of the challenges for us in writing a report. I appreciate your testimony. We have two realities almost. I have mentioned this to every other witness, so I will mention it to you. We have Aung San Suu Kyi, who is obviously a champion of human rights, and she has made the statement that she is welcoming and thankful that countries have removed sanctions. We hear some very positive things around some parts of Burma, beginning with our own officials here. You know, it's even to the point where yesterday I understand the Prime Minister of India was in Rangoon, and was making some positive overtures, as well as inviting Aung San Suu Kyi to do a lecture in India.

Then, we have this other reality that is happening in Kachin state, with all the testimony you have given us, and of course others, that there is huge persecution. It's not just religious persecution, but really, it's persecution across the board of anybody who wants any kind of semblance of independence and wants to go back to the original agreement and live as an independent state. That's going to be our challenge to try to highlight those two very different realities. Have I got a handle on that? Is that what you—

[James Paul Humphries]

Yes. I would say that if Aung San Suu Kyi could be president today, most of these ethnic groups would rally to her side tomorrow afternoon—that fast. The way this thing has been set up, there is no way she can become president. It states very clearly in this constitution that anyone who has had a foreign husband can never be president of the country. They wrote that in there for a particular reason. You would need a 75% vote just to change that. She can never get to the top of the echelon, where she once was, under this constitution.

We have to somehow help them to rebuild the constitution, but also help them to rebuild parties and to get to a place where they understand federalism. Aung San Suu Kyi is very concerned they don't understand federalism. There is no concept of federalism.