Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on June 19th, 2012

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Well, the point I was getting to, then, is that this has become systemic. It's not a group of people with a grudge or a bitterness working through. That may to some extent explain why it went from race-based to religion-based.... There was an evolution—

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

Yes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

—a very distorted evolution.

From your testimony, you're saying that it's still the military who are behind much of what's happening. They foment the problem, and then the people run with it and do the terrible deeds.

Canada recently lifted a lot of its sanctions. As far as I can recall, there are still sanctions on weapons and arms, but the rest have been lifted. Do you think that was a good idea?

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

I may want to present two different perspectives. I think that lifting sanctions.... I will not use the word “lifting”, but will say that “a relaxation” of sanctions may be a good way to go, but done carefully, quid pro quo.

Because President Thein Sein is saying that they are truthfully and sincerely moving toward democratic reform, I think western countries need to give some incentives without giving away too much—

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I tend to agree with you, sir, and that's why I'm interrupting. I'm short on time, so when we have agreement, I think I'll move on.

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

Yes.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

The president declared a state of emergency fairly recently. He purported to do this because of the violence. Is that state of emergency genuinely supported by the military? Are they really trying to intervene to prevent more atrocities?

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

I don't believe so. I don't believe so—

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'm sorry, sir. I didn't understand you. Did you say “I do believe so”?

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

I do not believe so. I think it is partially orchestrated by the government, which is mainly controlled by the military.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I guess that takes us to a point: what is the end game here? Is it to wipe out these people completely?

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

That's their objective. That's their objective.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It's very depressing to deal with, and I'm sure it's very, very difficult to be in the position you find yourself in.

Mr. Chair, how is my time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have another minute.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Another minute? That's fine.

What I am concerned about, when you ask for international intervention, is that we're really talking two levels here. One is humanitarian aid. With the monsoon season coming, you're absolutely correct; the possibility of disease is a horrendous thought.

As far as military intervention goes, I suspect that's very problematic to have happen by the international community. I mean, when we see what's happening in Syria, with the blatant, visible things that are televised, the situation happening in Burma is quite hidden from the public, relative to that...and we're not getting the action on Syria.

But certainly pressing for humanitarian aid is something that's essential.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

We'll go next to Mr. Hiebert.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Thank you, Dr. Uddin, for being with us today. I appreciate your testimony. It's been a fascinating study that we've had on Burma. This is a great way to round out some of the other aspects to the nation that we've been discussing.

I've heard a little bit about the Rohingya and their history, but it's still not particularly clear to me. My questions relate to how things got to this place.

First, are there any indications that the violence you cited in Arakan state has been orchestrated by the Burmese government? You said it was coordinated in two places, starting around the 2010 election, and the riots were coordinated. Do you know who's doing the coordination?

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

Yes. We have corroborated reports, substantive reports, that a significant component of the state government, the Burmese government in Arakan, is controlled by the Rakhine ethnic minority, which has been using violence against the Rohingya.

The coordination or the orchestration by the Burmese government is mainly by these Rakhine officials who have reached very, very high levels in the government system.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

So it's the state government officials.

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

The state government, and they have reached the central government as well.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Okay.

Has there been any dialogue whatsoever between the Rohingya leaders and the Burmese leaders?

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

There has not been dialogue between Burmese leaders and Rohingya leaders except during the election....

This is a very important point you have asked about, I must say. This has confused the international community as well.

On the one hand, the Burmese government itself has being doing ethnic cleansing and depriving the Rohingya of rights, violating human rights. On the other hand, they have picked up three Rohingya MPs. So while they are saying that these people are not citizens, that they don't belong to Arakan in Burma, they have three Rohingya MPs in the military-run, militarist USDP ruling party.

So the military has been using these three MPs for dialogue. Basically, these MPs are good MPs. They all care about Rohingya. But they are also under pressure from the military government about what to say and what not to say. Any discussion or talk going on between the military-run government and the Rohingya is through these three MPs and nobody else.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

So the Rohingya actually have elected representatives.

[Dr. Wakar Uddin]

Elected representatives.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

In the national government.