Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Sept. 27th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have one minute.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Then just quickly, when was the special rapporteur's report due to be published?

[Rebecca Netley]

The report that I referred to, the special enhanced report, is due to be published in February 2013 in advance of the March session of the Human Rights Council, which I believe is in the first few weeks of March.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

After that report is published and we see the magnitude and the recommendations therein, would you think that would be a good time to reassess whether a commission of inquiry would be appropriate?

Right now I think one of the concerns is not to be an impediment to the rapporteur's work. After that's published, would it be reasonable to revisit that?

[Rebecca Netley]

It's true that one of the concerns is not being an impediment to the rapporteur's work, but the utility of a commission of inquiry, given that we already have a special rapporteur.... I think that report, as I said, will be very comprehensive, so we hope it will shed some light on the situation and possibly point to other things that can be done.

I know there's a lot of anxiousness about seeing that report and that governments will consider it carefully, so in that sense it will be a time to evaluate where we stand in terms of multilateral mechanisms for addressing the situation of human rights in North Korea.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

M. Jacob, s'il vous plaît.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the witnesses for meeting with us today.

During your presentation, you said that at the United Nations General Assembly last year, Canada co-sponsored a resolution expressing serious concern about systematic, widespread and serious violations of civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights in North Korea.

You also strongly urged the North Korean government to take specific measures to fully respect all fundamental rights and freedoms.

You went on to say that North Korea's totalitarian regime has violated the basic rights of its citizens for decades, inflicting tremendous suffering on the North Korean people. You said the regime has left the country isolated, and its people oppressed and poverty-stricken.

My question is for all three department officials. What, in your view, is the most effective way for the Canadian government to apply pressure to bring about more protection for the North Korean people and their human rights?

[Graham Shantz]

First off, the government must make itself heard on the issue of human rights in North Korea. That means that both ministers and the Prime Minister need to make their position clear when it comes to human rights in North Korea. That is Canada's position. And we have to be very clear about that. Certainly, I would say that Canada's position is clear.

Second of all, we must work with our friends and partners in the United Nations, and even the 12 or 13 countries that are very concerned about the human rights situation, in order to apply pressure on the North Korean government.

Lastly, we must explain the Canadian government's position clearly and formally through our diplomatic contact with the North Korean government. For instance, Canada recommends a four-pronged engagement policy, which includes a human rights component.

To that end, how the government explains its position on respecting and protecting human rights in North Korea is key.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Netley, did you have anything to add to that?

[Rebecca Netley]

No, thank you.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Would the findings of a commission of inquiry established by the UN Secretary General impose a legal obligation on Canada to take action? Would things be different if the commission were established under a resolution of the UN Human Rights Council?

The question is for all three department officials.

[Rebecca Netley]

If I understand your question, it's whether there would be a difference in terms of the legal obligation by a commission of inquiry, whether it be at the Human Rights Council or established by the secretary-general. There would be no difference in terms of a legal obligation that would follow. A commission of inquiry is normally a fact-finding mission and usually makes preliminary determinations and possibly recommendations for follow-up. But in terms of a legal obligation, there would be no difference.

Were there to be a commission of inquiry under the Security Council, that would have a different consequence. A Security Council can make referrals to the International Criminal Court, for example. But between a commission of inquiry under the secretary-general or under the Human Rights Council, as I understand it, there would not be a difference.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

I have one last question.

If Canada decided to call for an international commission of inquiry into human rights violations in North Korea, do you think it would have implications on Canada's relations with the United States, South Korea, Japan or Russia? If so, could you please describe those implications?

[Rebecca Netley]

Thank you for the question.

As I noted, and as Mr. Shantz has noted, we are in constant dialogue with the other key allies for whom North Korean human rights are of great concern.

A first step prior to a country initiating a resolution that would call for a commission of inquiry, or a country trying to include a referral for a commission of inquiry in an existing resolution, would be to consult with those allies who are most engaged on the issue. So certainly were Canada to pursue an initiative such as this, or were any other country to pursue it, a first step would be to engage with those who are most involved with the situation—South Korea, Japan, and the United States, as well as the EU.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Very well.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Am I done?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have a minute left.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Since I have a minute left, I would like to ask another question.

Realistically, could the appointment of an international commission of inquiry into crimes against humanity and gross human rights violations in North Korea lead to the use of force against North Korea? Also, what position would China likely take on the use of force against North Korea? In other words, what implications would China's position have on the possibility of an internationally lawful use of force by the international community against North Korea?

[Graham Shantz]

It's very tough to speak for the Chinese government or to say exactly what it would do. For instance, in the case of the six-party talks, I would say that one of the biggest barriers to progress is the position held by a number of the countries in the group. It's hard. But, as my colleague mentioned, there has to be a consensus in order to move forward with a commission of inquiry.

Basically, the position held by a number of countries is extremely critical. Canada's position is clear. We will keep working with our friends and partners to improve the human rights situation in North Korea. It's up to the Chinese government to take a stand on that.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

All right.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

Thank you to our witnesses.

We really appreciate all three of you joining us. Of course, you had both plenty of advance notice and almost no advance notice, depending on how we look at it. Before the summer, we told you we'd like you to be here and then we got you here on very short notice. We are very grateful that you were able to come and enlighten us, so thank you very much for being here.

For those members of the committee, I just want to mention very briefly an unrelated item of business. We had been asked to encourage the Minister of Foreign Affairs to express the condolences of the Canadian government with regard to the death of the Cuban activist Oswaldo Paya. I've learned that a letter was sent a couple of months ago, not by the Minister of Foreign Affairs but by the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs in the Americas, Diane Ablonczy. I won't be following up with the letter, because I believe that was taken care of by the government.

Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.