Evidence of meeting #48 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was coptic.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Bailey  Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Good afternoon, everyone. I welcome you to the 48th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Today is October 2, 2012, and we are going to continue our study of the persecution of the Copt community in Egypt.

We have with us today two witnesses from the Department of Foreign Affairs: Mark Bailey, who is the director general of the Middle East and Maghreb bureau, and Andrea Gojevic, who is also from that division.

I'll turn the floor over to you, and once you're done we'll go to questions from the MPs. The amount of time for each question and answer round will be determined by how much time we have left available.

Please begin.

1:10 p.m.

Mark Bailey Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, for the opportunity to speak to you today.

I want to provide an update on the situation of Egyptian Coptic Christians in the context of Egypt's ongoing transition to democracy, and also say a few words about what Canada—that is, our department and missions—has been doing about this question.

On June 30, 2012, President Mohammed Morsi took office following Egypt's historic presidential elections, the first in that country since the Arab awakening transformed the political landscape of the region.

The pressures facing the Coptic community in Egypt have been a concern for Canada for some time. A number of incidents over the last several months have been particularly worrying. These include a situation in the town of Rafah last week in which Coptic Christians were threatened with violence by extremists, and an outbreak of sectarian violence in the village of Dahshour in early August. Both incidents forced members of the Coptic community to flee from their homes.

Since taking office, President Morsi and members of his government have committed to govern in the interest of all Egyptians and to protect the rights of Egypt's religious minorities.

The newly appointed Prime Minister, Hisham Kandil, named the members of his new cabinet in July, two of whom are members of the Coptic community, as is one of President Morsi's advisors.

A new constitution is being drafted, and once completed it will be put to a public referendum.

Article 2 of the current draft constitution deals, in part, with religious freedoms. An unofficial translation of the draft text is as follows:

Islam is the religion of the state, Arabic is its official language, the principles of Islamic Shari'a are the main source of legislation, the honourable Azhar is the final source of its interpretation and the adherents to Christianity and Judaism have the right to refer to their own doctrines in matters of law and performing their religious affairs and selecting their religious leaders.

The government has pledged that the new constitution will reflect the guidelines of the Al-Azhar document, a proposed set of guiding principles put forth by Egypt's pre-eminent Muslim and Christian leaders on how religious freedoms, human rights, and interfaith dialogue should be defined in the new democratic Egypt.

The adoption of the new constitution will be a critical benchmark in Egypt's transition to democracy. It will be a key opportunity for the new government to demonstrate its stated commitment to ensuring the human rights of all citizens, which was, of course, a central demand of the Egyptian people during last year's uprising.

Mr. Chair, Egypt has a long history of religious diversity. Coptic Christians have been an integral part of Egyptian society dating back to the second century AD.

Unconfirmed estimates indicate that Coptic Christians constitute somewhere between eight and 12% of Egypt's population of 82 million, making Copts the largest Christian minority in the region.

Over the centuries, Muslims and Copts have co-existed and today the overwhelming majority of Egyptians support religious tolerance.

A poignant manifestation of this was seen during the uprising, when thousands of Egyptians of all faiths, including Muslims and Christians, marched together in Tahrir Square in support of the slogan "We are all Egyptians".

However, Coptic Christians in Egypt have felt vulnerable to threats on a number of occasions from mobs and extremists who do not accept the religious plurality of the country.

As I mentioned, over the past few months, Copts living near Alexandria and Dahshour, a village near Cairo, have been forced from their homes following violence and attacks at the hands of their neighbours, generally arising out of feuds between individuals from the Coptic and Muslim communities.

In the past week, Coptic Christians living in the city of Rafah in the Sinai Peninsula have been particularly affected by the lack of stability in the area, and some Coptic Christians have been threatened with violence and even death by militant extremists, causing some Coptic families to flee to neighbouring towns.

Prime Minister Kandil has spoken out against these threats, and has assured the families that Egyptian security personnel will ensure their protection in Rafah.

This comes in the context of a wider conflict between Egyptian authorities and extremists in the Sinai, where insecurity has affected all residents, especially in the northern part of the peninsula. We welcome these assurances, as we believe that it is of utmost importance that Egyptian authorities take all the necessary steps to protect members of religious minorities from violence and extremism. It is also important that perpetrators of violence against members of religious minorities are brought to justice.

In January 2011, an individual was tried and found guilty for the shooting deaths of six Copts and a Muslim policeman in Naga Hammadi in January 2010.

However, no one has been brought to trial to date in connection with the suicide bombing that targeted Copts in Alexandria in January 2011. The Egyptian police forces are still using the "reconciliation" model to address violence, a practice which generally avoids prosecuting the perpetrators of violence and vandalism.

There was a serious incident on October 9, 2011, the so-called "Maspiro incident", in which at least 25 Coptic Christian protestors were killed and over 300 were injured in clashes with Egyptian military personnel.

Following that tragedy, Canada welcomed the commitment by the Egyptian government to bring those responsible for the violence to justice.

Two parallel judicial processes, one civilian and one military, have taken place. Earlier in September, three soldiers were convicted of manslaughter in connection with the deaths of 14 protesters. They were sentenced to two to three years in prison. A civilian trial against two Coptic defendants who allegedly stole weapons from military personnel during the incident is scheduled to take place today. We are monitoring this closely. We hope that the remainder of the process will be fair and transparent, and bring justice to the families of the victims.

I would like to highlight some of the positive measures that the Egyptian government has taken over the past year to address concerns about intolerance and discrimination against religious minorities.

In October 2011, following the Maspiro incident, the Egyptian government added a new article to the Egyptian legal code which increased the penalties for discrimination based on gender, ethnic origin, language, religion or belief. The Egyptian government also committed itself to addressing all claims of discriminatory practices against Coptic Christians. Religious leaders in Egypt are also working together towards increased understanding and tolerance, most notably through the Bayt al-A'ila (family home) initiative, which includes representatives from Al Azhar, the Coptic Church, the Anglican Church and others.

As mentioned earlier with respect to the Azhar document, the results of inter-faith dialogue can have a tangible effect on Egypt's transition.

We fully support these efforts, and encourage Egyptians to continue working together to build a culture of respect for pluralism and religious freedom, as the importance of strong social norms that make it unacceptable to discriminate on the basis of religion cannot be overstated.

Mr. Chair, Canada and Egypt have long-standing ties and a bilateral relationship that is mature and multi-dimensional. We look forward to working with the new government and we stand ready to assist with efforts to build a more democratic, inclusive, and prosperous country.

With respect to human rights, for many years the Canadian government has encouraged Egypt to respect its obligations, including those related to the treatment of religious minorities. When serious concerns have arisen—for instance, following the Maspero incident in October 2011—Minister Baird has made public statements calling on Egypt to ensure freedom of religion and the protection of religious minorities.

On October 17, 2011, the House of Commons passed a motion expressing “solidarity with...religious minorities around the world” and condemning attacks on Egyptian Coptic Christians and their institutions. The motion called on the Egyptian government “to ensure that the perpetrators of attacks be brought to justice” and asked the UN human rights council to investigate the situation of Coptic Christians in Egypt. At the minister's request, Speaker of the Senate Noël Kinsella subsequently raised the situation of the Copts in Egypt and the House of Commons motion with UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

Our officials will continue to monitor closely the human rights situation in Egypt and will make representations to the Egyptian government as appropriate and needed.

Canada is a strong and committed supporter of the individual's right to freedom of religion and has made the protection of religious minorities and the promotion of pluralism a foreign policy priority. We believe that freedom of religion is a fundamental human right and a vital component in a healthy democracy.

Mr. Chair, Egypt is a vibrant and dynamic country with a rich tradition of philosophical and intellectual discourse. We recognize that there are many challenges going forward as Egyptians seek to define the political and legal foundations of their new system of governance. Despite these challenges, we believe that the vast majority of Egyptians are committed to building a society where people of all religions can worship freely according to their beliefs and can live their faiths in peace.

We believe it is vital that the new Egypt be guided by respect for democratic principles, including human rights and rule of law, and we will continue to urge the Government of Egypt to ensure that Copts and all other religious minorities are protected from violence and are free to play an equal and meaningful role in society.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be happy to take your questions and those of the committee members.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Thank you.

Given the amount of time we have, it makes sense for us to have six-minute rounds.

I invite Mr. Albrecht to begin, please.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here today.

Obviously, I think, all of us around this table are deeply committed to the value of freedom of religion as a fundamental human right, recognizing that most—if not all—other human rights flow from that.

Throughout your document, your speech today, and the documents we received from the Library of Parliament, there are a number of references to the attacks that are being carried on by extreme groups within Egypt, as opposed to the government itself, and there is some indication that perhaps the action of the government in dealing with those violent attacks is less than robust.

You also reference the reconciliation meetings, which are being used in lieu of prosecutions. It appears that in some cases these reconciliation meetings may actually be serving as a cover for not dealing aggressively with the violent behaviour.

Finally, in your comments today you mentioned the Maspero incident, the two parallel judicial processes, and the two- to three-year sentences in prison for those who were convicted of the deaths of 14 protestors.

Is that type of sentence consistent with other judgments that would have been rendered for murder in a less religious context? This appears to me—I'll be frank—to be a very light sentence for the deaths of 14 people. I'm wondering if you could comment on that. Also, could you comment further on the issue of the reconciliation process, which appears to provide a bit of a cover for actually dealing in a really forthright way with a problem that's pretty severe?

1:25 p.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

Yes, thank you.

I agree with you. To me personally, a sentence of two to three years for having caused the death of somebody, even when it's trying to bring about order in a public place, does appear lenient. What I can't answer at the moment—-we will look into it and get back to you, sir—is whether that's consistent with other sentences the Egyptian justice system has handed out in other situations. I would have to ask our embassy and get them to look into it. I say personally I would agree with you. Two to three years does seem pretty light, especially since, as we said, there were 14 killed in this particular incident; there must have been some fairly serious measures taken to quell the disturbance.

In terms of the reconciliation procedures and so on, I think we can all understand and recognize that as part of the authorities' response to these incidents, efforts at reconciliation, at promoting better understanding and relations between the various communities, would indeed be a very desirable part of what the authorities would do.

If we mentioned this in our statement as being something that seemed to perhaps start to become a substitute for prosecution and justice, then indeed that does start to raise questions in our minds. As I indicated, it's something the mission is following closely. It's something that's covered in the annual human rights reports that we prepare and we intend to continue following it.

I would say we haven't yet come to a conclusion on that, but the very question that you have raised is indeed in our minds, and if we do start to come to a conclusion that it is a substitute for justice, then I assure you that's something we would be taking up with the Egyptian authorities.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Do I have a little time yet, Mr. Chair?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Lots of time, actually.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

On a more general question, and in terms of the constitution that's being drafted at the current time, is there evidence that the different representative groups within Egypt are actually fairly represented, for example, Coptic Christians?

Secondly, how about female Coptic Christians? Is there any attempt at all to provide some type of affirmative action, for lack of a better word, to ensure that there's an adequate representation especially of those who might be considered vulnerable?

1:25 p.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

At one point, very early in the process, I remember there was concern that the constitution drafting process was in fact a little bit too much dominated by one particular side of the discussion in Egypt, namely the Muslim Brotherhood, and those whose views would be similar or even stronger.

I'm not up to speed myself on what measures they've taken in this new constitutional drafting process that's under way now, so I'll have to look into that and get back to you, Mr. Albrecht, with an answer to that question.

You'll remember I mentioned that two members of the cabinet are members of the Coptic Church, and indeed one of those is a woman. I guess one could argue it's a good first step, but more needs to be done perhaps. I think it's clear that President Morsi and Prime Minister Kandil recognize the desirability of taking such measures. Whether they've gone far enough, whether more needs to be done, I don't think anyone would be prepared to say, yes, they've done all that needs to be done. I doubt even they themselves would say that. But it's still early days.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Just to—

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You're out of time. Can you be extremely brief?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

I was just going to say.... In general, do you think conditions have improved since the fall of the Mubarak regime? Are they on the right track? You said first steps here. Are we seeing first steps generally in the country?

1:25 p.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

I don't think there's any question but that in the area of freedom of expression, political liberties, and so on, things have improved. That is unquestionable. On the other hand, and as I mentioned in my remarks, huge challenges remain, especially on the economic front, especially on the status of women and their general position in society. These are problems that have been developing over decades, even centuries, and Egypt isn't going to overcome them in the space of a few weeks or months or even years. It's going to take a long time.

There's no doubt in my mind and in the minds of other observers of Egypt that overall things have improved.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Mr. Marston.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Welcome, Mr. Bailey.

To continue further on the conversation you're having, when a leader of any regime is displaced, resigns, or even dies, they say there's change in the air, but there was a whole regime in place that had power and control over the citizenry in a way that's really hard to turn back. Have you seen significant change, in your view, in that area in Egypt?

1:30 p.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

That's an excellent question. You've hit the bull's eye in terms of the challenge that is facing President Morsi and his government.

We're talking about a Queen Mary here and it just cannot turn on a dime. The Egyptian state is a huge apparatus. It was used basically as an employment program for decades by previous regimes, going back to the time of Sadat, and even Nasser before him. You have a gigantic state apparatus filled with thousands and thousands of people who collect a pay cheque and then go out and drive taxis to supplement their income.

Has there been change in that area? No, not yet. They haven't succeeded in tackling that kind of problem.

This would be a footnote or a nuance to what I said about political liberties, freedom of expression, and so on. The same police and security forces that were operating in Mubarak's time are still there. President Morsi replaced some of the very top officials, the commanders, ministers, and so on, who were in charge, but the basic guys who are out on the street, the ones who actually stop people and check their papers, are the same, and they haven't been retrained.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

That was exactly my point. There was a lot of hope and expectation when you had the gatherings of people and the conversations about overthrowing Mubarak and all of those things, but the reality on the ground is that I don't think there's that big of a difference.

The other concern I have is you can draft the best constitution on the face of the earth, but if you don't enforce it and believe in it and live up to it, it has no value at all.

When we saw that pushback with the president and the military in recent months, it raised the question that even if they attain this constitution, what real value will it have? I have my doubts. Egypt is a country that has been in existence for a long time, and things are very entrenched there.

Coming back to the Coptic Christians, since the overthrow of Mubarak and since you've indicated there have been some changes in the hierarchy here and there, would you say that the situation for the Coptics has remained the same, or is it worse or better than what it was before?

1:30 p.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

My personal assessment would be that it's about the same.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Are the Muslim Brotherhood primarily Sunni?

1:30 p.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

Yes, they're almost exclusively Sunni.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I may be mistaken, but I spent some time in Saudi Arabia in 1979, six months in fact, and it is mostly Shia that are the leadership in Saudi Arabia. No?

1:30 p.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

No, they are actually Sunnis. The Shia are in fact—

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

That explains my misunderstanding of something, a long-held belief in that place then, because there was a distinct difference between the regime in Saudi Arabia and the people, especially when you got into dealing with the religious beliefs and all of the things that go on.

Coming back to the Muslim Brotherhood, they are seen as more strict and more controlling. If they were in charge of the country, would they be seen as more strict and more controlling of the people, their values and religion and things like that?

1:35 p.m.

Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

In Egypt? In a sense, they are in control of the country, or at least they have the presidency.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

I realize that, but I'm saying, going forward, would you anticipate things becoming more strict, in the sense of religion and Islam becoming more problematic in that country relative to the Coptic Christians and others?