Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2012

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You made reference to the situation in Sinai that might affect the Christian Coptics in Rafah and the like and recent developments there. I'm wondering if you're able to comment on the situation in Sinai, generally speaking, as a kind of destabilizing presence that may be threatening to both Egypt and Israel, and the steps that are being taken in that regard.

[Mark Bailey]

It most definitely is. You're absolutely right, sir.

As I mentioned, there was this terrible incident back in August when a gang of jihadis attacked an Egyptian security post and killed 16 Egyptian soldiers. This was clearly a huge shock and a wake-up call for the Egyptian authorities and for President Morsi personally. He took pretty drastic action by firing the head of intelligence and firing some of the other senior military commanders, who were held accountable for their failure to indeed prevent this incident and deal more generally with the situation in the Sinai.

You're quite right: it's a very worrying development. There was an incident not that long ago in which these people who were operating in that area actually attacked the MFO station, the Multinational Force and Observers station, where Canadians indeed serve. Thank God that none of our Canadian personnel were injured or hurt in the attack, but they could have been.

Israel, for obvious reasons, is very nervous about what's going on in this area and about the potential for it to bring violence both to Israel itself as well as to other neighbouring countries—and to Egypt, for that matter. It's certainly not in Israel's interest to see Egypt destabilized or attacked in this way.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

That went over a little because Professor Cotler asked a question when the clock ran out.

Ms. Grewal, you're next, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Bailey, last October the House of Commons passed a resolution to ask the UN Human Rights Council to conduct an investigation into the plight of the Coptic Christians in Egypt.

Could you please update us on the progress surrounding this request, particularly on how it has been received and addressed by the Human Rights Council?

[Mark Bailey]

I don't have information on that, Mrs. Grewal. I'm not aware of the Human Rights Council actually taking action on the request.

One element that I suppose I can share with you is that when our mission in Cairo consulted with the leadership of the Coptic community in Egypt about having the Human Rights Council undertake this investigation, their views were rather negative about this being undertaken. Their view was pretty strong that were the UN to become involved in Egypt's situation in this way, this wouldn't help, and would quite possibly make their situation even more difficult.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I would also like to touch on The Economist Intelligence Unit and its statement about the possibility of there having been an internal military coup. The unit explains that there is speculation that if in fact there has been a coup, the new military is likely to have been assured by the president that they will attain a degree of operational autonomy. This is in return for supporting the president in his overturning of the SCAF decree attempting to limit his power.

If in fact the military is assured of this autonomy, what does this mean for the civilian government's control of the military and the ability to ensure the military's accountability in the face of Coptic Christian persecution? Do you have anything to say on that?

[Mark Bailey]

I am not aware of this Economist Intelligence Unit assessment that you mentioned. If we could get a copy of it, we'll have a look and provide our assessment through the clerk of the committee.

As I indicated, our view is that the new president has taken some rather impressive steps, frankly, to reassert the primacy of the civilian power over the military. Certainly his dismissal of Field Marshal Tantawi and several other generals, and replacement with his own hand-picked military officers over the leadership of the military, to me would tend to indicate the opposite of that suggestion.

Perhaps The Economist Intelligence Unit has some information we're not aware of, so we'll have a look at it and make an assessment, and consult with our mission and others who watch Egypt, to see whether there is anything to it.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

In your view, are there any specific things that Canada can do to improve the respect for human rights of Coptic Christians in Egypt?

[Mark Bailey]

Oh, yes. Clearly we can be offering all kinds of support, both to the community itself, but also to those parts of the Egyptian government apparatus in charge, for example, of drafting constitutions, or parts of their administration whose job it is to promote better interfaith dialogue and understanding.

Perhaps this issue of reconciliation and whether it's becoming a substitute for justice is something on which we might think about offering some cooperation, some technical assistance and advice. We have many well-known academics, and others in the area, who are world experts—indeed, one of them is here with us now—and I'm sure they would all be more than willing to offer their assistance to Egypt.

Indeed we do have programs that can provide that kind of assistance.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Chair, I will stop my time. I would like to give the rest of my time to Mr. Sweet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Do you have some more questions, Mr. Sweet?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I have no further questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Before we go to Monsieur Jacob, I have a question as a result of Professor Cotler's question. It raised something.

He mentioned the situation of Mr. Nabil and the effort to cause his extradition back to Egypt from Germany, where he now lives.

A number of countries, including some in Europe—I do not know if Germany is one of them—have adopted a law saying that we must be careful. They are legally obliged not to engage in acts that will qualify as blasphemy under any of the major religions or that would be excessively disrespectful towards any religion in some manner. I can't tell exactly how this is done in the law. I haven't studied it.

There are some countries in the Muslim world that have adopted similar laws. The Pakistani government has been actively promoting the idea that all countries should adopt similar laws. Its cover, I think, for the frankly extremely intolerant laws it has regarding religion, is that this is all about ensuring that people are respectful of all religions. In practice, of course, it is Islam that seems to be subject to the greatest concern for protection, and there seems to be very little respect for other religions.

At any rate, does such a law exist in Egypt as well? Is that part of their constitution or their proposed constitution?

[Mark Bailey]

I don't know. We'll look into it and get back to you with the answer, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Mr. Jacob, you have the floor.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bailey and Ms. Gojevic, thank you for being here to answer our questions.

In his speech last week to the United Nations in New York, President Morsi said:

Egypt would like to stress that the international system will not get fixed as long as the application of double standards remains. We expect from others, as they expect from us, that they respect our cultural particularities and religious points of reference, and not seek to impose concepts that are unacceptable to us or politicize certain issues and use them as a pretext to intervene in the affairs of others.

In light of that point of view, what do you think are the most effective steps Canada could take to promote human rights during Egypt's transition toward democracy?

[Mark Bailey]

I think two kinds of action are necessary. The individuals concerned, their NGOs, their associations and activities clubs should be given technical assistance to organize themselves better, express themselves better and further assert their demands to have their rights recognized.

I also think legislators should be given technical assistance as well as Canadian expertise with respect to drafting a constitution, legislation and regulations. A member of this committee raised an important point. Drafting good legislation is not enough; the officials responsible for implementing it need to be trained and instructed in the meaning of the texts that they will be called upon to implement.

I think the best way to act would be to give our expertise, our assistance and our understanding of the challenges. Changing from one day to the next is not always easy for countries that have strongly entrenched and very old traditions and values. It takes time. Furthermore, there are ways to help with respect to this challenge.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

May I ask a second question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Go ahead.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

What do you think the best way would be for Canada to support respect of freedom of expression and women's rights in Egypt during the transition period? Do you think certain kinds of action might be more or less effective?

[Mark Bailey]

I think my answer to the first question may also apply to the second. The status of women is unfortunately one of the biggest weaknesses in Egyptian society today. I don't know what has happened in that country for the respect for women to be so little honoured, at least in public.

A few years ago, when I held the same post I do now, I found myself prohibiting our female agents from getting training in Arabic. Actually, I found that what they were being subjected to in the streets of Cairo was totally unacceptable.

To come back to the question, I will say that Egyptian women need help in getting organized, asserting their demands with regard to respect and rights. In fact, I think I can say that our embassy is already doing this. We have programs aimed at encouraging these types of thing. The Canadian embassy in Cairo is certainly already involved in that type of activity.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Bailey.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Jacob.

Before we allow our witnesses to leave, are there any further questions anyone wants to bring up? We have a tiny bit of time left.

I'm not seeing anything, so I'll thank both of our witnesses. You indicated that you'd get back to us. Please do so. That will be very helpful to us in pursuing our further work on this subject.

We're grateful that you were able take the time to be with us today.

[Mark Bailey]

We'll follow up with our missions, and I'll be writing back to the clerk, sir.