Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2012

[Neil Reeder]

I think it's very regrettable because it closes another avenue where one can raise concerns about individual cases in Venezuela. This is a development of concern. I won't say we were surprised by it, given the tenor of some of the remarks from Venezuela.

On your final point, one could contemplate other members of the ALBA grouping taking a similar approach down the road, but for us it's not at all a positive development. I think it also reinforces the point that Venezuela and its allies are trying to isolate the larger regional institutions that promote and support human rights, because that's not part of their agenda.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Could that affect the mandate of the Rapporteur on the Rights of Human Rights Defenders?

[Neil Reeder]

It could, yes.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You still have another minute if you need it, Mr. Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

No, I'm fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

All right.

In that case, Mr. Sweet, it's your turn.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Reeder, it's good to see you again, and thank you very much for your testimony.

I want to refer to this:

Recommendation 10: The Subcommittee recommends that the Government of Canada call upon the Government of Venezuela to take concrete steps to reduce the circulation and number of arms in the hands of its civilian population....

The response from the government is that it continues to offer expertise to Venezuela regarding policing issues.

Has the Venezuelan government taken up the Government of Canada's offer in this regard and accepted help regarding policing issues, training, or resources?

[Neil Reeder]

My understanding is that we've had some limited cooperation with the government on police reform and professionalization of the police forces, so it's starting.

I think we could do more and we're conscious that this may be an area where we can actually work with that government. The challenge is one that affects all of this community, in which there are very high levels of violence. I would say we've started, but we could probably do more. It's an area in which we might be able to find some common ground. The levels of violence are such that they are affecting everyone regardless of political orientation. It's troubling to see the rates of crime and express kidnappings. Per capita murder rates are among the highest in the world.

We don't believe the government has addressed this issue as seriously as it should, and it's beginning to spiral. I think that's affecting not only security but also public attitudes. It was interesting to watch in the election campaign how many people identified insecurity as their principal concern.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, and that might be the result of the significant difference in the vote, with the spread being drastically diminished. Hugo Chavez mentioned publicly that he was cognizant that his plurality had diminished quite a bit.

Would I be overstating it to say that the social services and social outcomes for the general population are now better, but that the human rights aspects of the judiciary have not improved and the corruption of the police and the media haven't diminished at all?

[Neil Reeder]

That's probably a fair statement. I would say we recognize the improvement in some of the social indicators. That's a good thing. It's also something, as a trend, we're seeing across South America, and one would expect those social indicators to be better in the country given the revenues it has. With the third largest proven reserves of oil in the world, there has to be benefit back to the people.

At the same time, as you said, sir, the environment in which people live I think is degrading in terms of security. That's a principal concern, but also we're feeling fewer freedoms and opportunities for different points of view in terms of civil society, opposition, and such. That is continuing to be an area of concern for us.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Finally, Mr. Reeder, I think it is obviously unanimous in the committee that we're appreciative of the award the embassy gives out for human rights. What has the response been from the government of Venezuela in this regard? It's very open. In fact, after people win the award, they actually tour. Has there been a negative response toward our government? Does the Government of Venezuela accept that? Is there some kind of contrition and some mending of its ways?

[Neil Reeder]

Sir, I would say that the government probably doesn't appreciate the award, but because of its profile and because of the way in which it's presented by us as an opportunity to support civil society, and because it does bring together a lot of groups in the country, I think it probably respects the award and chooses not to attack it nor the recipients publicly, because of the profile and the fact that the Government of Canada is behind it. In that sense it is effective, but I can't imagine the government enjoys a country coming in and recognizing human rights defenders. It has placed itself in the position which has led us to take a decision to advance this award. Again, I don't know whether it is unique to Venezuela or outside of our region, but certainly in the case of Venezuela, the award does have an impact, which the government recognizes, but I don't think it appreciates it.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Reeder.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

Thank you to all committee members.

Mr. Reeder, we're very grateful to you for coming.

Mr. Jacob, you have the floor.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

According to the U.N., Venezuela’s growth rate is higher than that of Argentina, which is 2%, higher than that of Brazil, which is 1.5%, and higher than Mexico’s 4% growth rate. Household consumption has been the driver of growth, and this is due to the labour market, public investments and the expansion of credit.

Can you comment on the positive aspects of President Hugo Chavez's economic program?

[Neil Reeder]

As I said earlier in English, it is true that, in certain sectors and according to certain indices, there is some increase in the standard of living of the lowest income segments of the population. You can see this in the data. It is also a fact that the gap between rich and poor is narrowing and that the level of poverty is lower than before. So there is some progress.

There is also more housing available for the poorest people thanks to government programs. So there is progress in some sectors, but not all. There is still work to be done. Considering the state’s revenues, it would have been surprising not to find any progress. This was expected of the Venezuelan government.

However, there is still a lot of work to be done. In many sectors, including security, the government has not done what it should have. There are still very high levels of insecurity and crime in Venezuela.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Speaking of crime, Mr. Humberto Prado Sifontes was the first recipient of the Canadian embassy’s human rights award. This lawyer is the director of the Venezuelan Prisons Observatory, a group that works to improve prison conditions and advocate for the rights of prisoners.

In its report, the subcommittee noted with concern that Mr. Sifontes and his family were faced with intimidation and death threats after two massive prison riots left 22 people dead. He was accused by the government of working with political opponents to orchestrate the violence in order to create chaos in the prisons and destabilize the government.

Would you please give us an update on this situation?

[Neil Reeder]

I can't say much about the issue but, considering the present situation in Venezuela, it would not be surprising if members of the government tried to put the blame on non-governmental groups. Discrediting civil society is, to some extent, part of their objective, and this is one way of doing it.

Mr. Sifontes is striving to modernize prisons so as to give more space to the people detained and to improve their living conditions. We are well aware that the situation in prisons is very difficult. His actions may explain why he has been subject to unfounded criticism by the government.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

It seems there is a climate of intimidation and harassment targeting certain human rights advocates in Venezuela.

In your opinion, what action can Canada take to promote tolerance and dialogue with human rights advocates?

[Neil Reeder]

Our embassy has in fact tried to bring people together. The Venezuelan people are highly polarized on the Chavez government: there are those who support him and those who oppose him. The two groups are quite uncompromising in their stand.

For example, we are trying to bring people together around a table to hold discussions in the Venezuelan Congress. We are trying to avoid politicization of each and every activity or point of view. We are making efforts to build bridges and establish dialogue between political parties. Several embassies are supporting these efforts, the goal being to reduce tensions between groups. We are also striving to reinforce civil society’s action so it is not isolated when facing the government.

We are asking the government to be open and to accept comments and criticism from non-political groups. However, the government believes that these non-governmental groups are affiliated with certain political parties. We do not believe this to be true. Criticism from civil society groups is considered as political action. This is not fair. We emphasize openness when these kinds of comments are made because this is part of democracy.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Reeder.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you for your patience, Mr. Jacob.

Thank you, Mr. Reeder, for coming here to be a witness and providing us with information that was very helpful to all of us. We are grateful that you were able to come.

Colleagues, I'm going to give Mr. Reeder a moment to collect his stuff, then we'll go in camera to deal with a small amount of future business before we adjourn for the day.

[Proceedings continue in camera]