Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2012

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I don't think any of us would disagree with you on that final point. Again, coming back to Colombia and Honduras, there are some other places where there are significant issues around human rights violations. There's a very serious one is North Korea.

It just struck me that this intervention was original in how it was put together. It sounds like a good idea. I don't have any issues with it. It's just how it evolved and how it got to that point.

You used the term earlier in your remarks about friendly embassies. We're used to terminologies where we talk about our allied nations and our friends. Is there a distinction between that and what you'd consider a friendly embassy? Is it perhaps a place that we don't have the best relations with, country to country, but where you may be able to have a working relationship with an embassy?

[Neil Reeder]

I think in the case of Venezuela, a number of what we would call our traditional friends all have similar problems of access, of doing their normal diplomatic work. The United States, for example, has chargé-level representation in Caracas. The United Kingdom, some of the other countries that we work well with, all find it a difficult and challenging environment, so we tend to work together for common objectives, certainly in terms of information sharing and such, because different tiers of countries have access to that government based on their orientation and ideology.

Canada certainly is not part of the inner circle. We take strong positions. We defend Canadian values. We support the human rights defenders, and as such, it creates a significant gap with the host government.

That being said, we do have other interests in Venezuela. I was looking at our trade figures. It's a very important export market for western Canadian agricultural products. It's RIM's biggest market in South America. It's a very prosperous country which buys 90% of its goods, and 90% of its revenue comes from oil. There is a commercial relationship that's important, but we find things get complicated at the political, civil society level.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

How's my time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have almost 30 seconds.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

On your comment about the economy and how we have a good exchange with them, would that suggest that some of the aspects of this government have actually been productive for the citizens of Venezuela, in terms of some of their policies?

[Neil Reeder]

As I said in my remarks, sir, you could look at some indicators in Venezuela in a positive light. There have been reductions in the level of poverty, and an increased availability of housing. Again, this is a country with severe inequities in income. Some of that has been diminished.

At the same time, on the human rights side, we see a tightening of space. We saw domination, for example, by the president of his media outlets during the election. There wasn't a level playing field.

We do recognize that some gains have been made, but one would expect some gains to be made, given the $60 billion in oil revenues annually. You should be able to develop better housing and such for people. Sadly, though, there are still many issues. Security is a major concern, as is crime. They have one of the highest murder rates per capita in the world.

There are many challenges ahead, but one has to recognize that there have been some advances. That's not unique to Venezuela. Brazil had 30 million people lifted out of extreme poverty in the last two terms of President Lula. We're seeing a trend, in Colombia as well, of a lifting up of the poorest of the poor, which is a very good thing.

In Venezuela, that lifting up is driven purely by oil revenues.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

We turn now to Ms. Grewal, please.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Reeder, thank you so much for your time.

In your opinion, were the October 7, 2012, presidential elections free and fair in Venezuela?

[Neil Reeder]

Well, you can say that yes, the election took place in a transparent fashion.

Our view is that the means by which they undertake elections in Venezuela is fair. They have a professional system of voting, an electronic system.

Our view is that the process itself, the actual vote, was fair. The challengers did not challenge the outcome of the vote. Mr. Capriles was quite clear in what he said: “I accept the vote. Democracy has spoken. We'll move on.”

As well, at 88%, the participation rate was huge. But the playing field cannot be considered fair when, for example, the president monopolizes the airwaves; when the president can take over at will the television stations to promote his message; and when you get massive coverage of the president and almost no profile or opportunity for the opposition to use electronic media.

Then there's this whole question of using state resources for housing programs. All this kicked in before the election, so obviously there were people trying to influence the voter.

The environment wasn't a fair playing field, but the electoral process we believe to have been fair. Most observers would say that. Even the opposition candidate and the members of the electoral council would say that. The opposition member who was on the electoral council said, “Well, if you're talking about fraud, give me some examples, because I don't see them.”

There were issues on voting day, such as people distributing pamphlets outside the polling booths, which isn't supposed to be done, but generally speaking the process itself was fair.

Was the environment in which the election took place fair? That's a different question.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Have you heard about any incidents of violence or intimidation against political opponents of President Chavez since the election?

[Neil Reeder]

No. Since the election, I can't say I have.

There were some reports of violence against the opposition. A couple of workers in the opposition party were killed a week or two before the vote, but since then, I haven't been aware of anything.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Has Canada received any further reports of anti-Semitic attacks in Venezuela, and if so, how has the Government of Canada responded?

[Neil Reeder]

Madam, I think we had that question a little while ago.

Actually, we've not heard anything lately. I would have to go back a number of months, to when we talked about this other issue, but I've not seen anything lately.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Recently, Venezuela formally notified the Secretary General of the Organization of the American States that effective next September it intends to denounce the Inter-American Convention on Human Rights.Can you comment on Venezuela's intentions in regard to this decision? Is this cause for concern for the plurality of the government, given the increase in threats of violence by pro-government officials?

[Neil Reeder]

We would certainly regret that announcement. It's part of a larger pattern we see. Venezuela, essentially, is not supportive of the Organization of the American States. It doesn't accept that regional human rights organizations and commissions have a legitimate role. It challenges that role, which it sees as intrusive. It sees the OAS and its organizations as instruments of what it calls the imperial power, which would be the United States. They tend not to be supportive of those kinds of institutions anyway. This is part of a pattern we see, including in the OAS, where the ALBA countries, which are the allies of Venezuela, tend to work against Canada and others and tend to work against the larger interests of the Organization of the American States.

The ALBA grouping is very much the focus of their interest. It's kind of a vehicle by which they promote their agenda, which is often against the agenda of Canada.

We see these organizations as inclusive. They represent all of the Americas. For Canada, the OAS is the only organization that brings in everybody, from Chile to Canada and into the Caribbean. We want to be supportive of these hemispheric organizations, but we don't see the same from Venezuela.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Given the current form of social democracy in Venezuela, the majority can occupy power to the point of shutting out opposition and diversity. This diminishes the plurality of parties, opinions, and members in the government. Due to the dominating nature of this system, how are minorities being effectively represented in the Venezuelan government? These include women, opposition parties, and religious minorities.

[Neil Reeder]

I'm probably not close enough to the situation to fully answer that question. It is a question I can take under advisement. Certainly a range of candidates were in the election. I can't speak to the percentage of women, for example, in the congress and such. I don't think Venezuela would be much different from some of the other Latin American countries in terms of percentages.

I'd rather take that question under review.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Ms. Grewal. That's phenomenally well timed. You're exactly on the nose.

We'll go to Professor Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for being with us, Mr. Reeder.

My question has to do with our subcommittee's recommendation 15, in which we called on the Government of Canada to itself call for the immediate release of Judge María Lourdes Afiuni and a guarantee of her security and the security of her supporters. The government's response was that it would continue to demonstrate support for her cause.

Since we made that recommendation, members of the Venezuelan judiciary have publicly admitted to government interference in judicial decision-making. There are a number of examples. I'll give you one. Former Justice Eladio Aponte has confessed to manipulating the criminal justice system in order to persecute opponents of Hugo Chavez.

My question is whether you can provide us with an update, in particular, on the situation of Judge Afiuni. Is she under house arrest? What is the state of her health and well-being? Has she been subject to further threats, intimidation, or harassment? Similarly, have her lawyers and human rights defenders been so subjected? Has the Government of Canada communicated concern regarding her situation to the Government of Venezuela? If so, how was this done?

[Neil Reeder]

Thank you, sir.

As of today, what I can advise you is that she remains under house arrest. It was reported on September 21 that she had been denied the right to vote in the presidential election. In the hearings on her case that took place prior to the election, the judge deferred a discussion of her status to a later date. We interpret that to mean that it will presumably take place after the elections.

I would like to provide a further update for the committee on this, if I can, including on the démarches we may have undertaken.

We'll obviously continue to demonstrate our support for the defenders in Venezuela and for individuals such as Judge Afiuni, as we indicated to you in our report.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Let me broaden the question, if I may, to your appreciation of the state of the movement for judicial independence in Venezuela.

Are there actions that Canada can take to support these movements? These movements can have powerful impacts. For example, in Pakistan we had the lawyers' movement, which had the effect of removing the military dictatorship. The movement for judicial independence and those associated with it can have a real impact.

I wonder what you can tell us about the current state of judicial independence, and any movements on its behalf in Venezuela.

[Neil Reeder]

We continue to be preoccupied with the question of the autonomy of the judiciary. Our ambassador has been very engaged on these files in his conversations. I think we've expressed our views in various ways, including support to civil society and questions to the legal community, but perhaps I can come back to you with a more formal answer on that one.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

What is your view on Venezuela's decision to effectively withdraw, if not denounce, the American Convention on Human Rights? What impact might this have on the protection of human rights defenders in Venezuela and on influencing other states to withdraw from the convention as well?