Evidence of meeting #58 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indonesia.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Irshad Manji  Director, Moral Courage Project
Gary Schellenberger  Perth—Wellington, CPC

1:35 p.m.

Director, Moral Courage Project

Irshad Manji

Right. Thank you for clarifying the intention of the question.

On those human rights activists, from journalists to members of non-governmental organizations to lawyers, the whole coalition that Human Rights Watch represents, when we have engaged, when my team and I have engaged, representatives of that coalition in places like Jakarta, the capital, or Yogyakarta, which is the city in which the worst attack on us happened, to a person—to a person—they all say to us that they find themselves in a catch-22. If you speak up for the freedoms that are guaranteed in the constitution of Indonesia, then you can expect either yourself or your family—and that's a big issue, your family—to be targeted. But—

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Could I interrupt you just for one second?

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

You can't, because we're a minute over now.

1:35 p.m.

Director, Moral Courage Project

Irshad Manji

I'll finish up this answer.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Yes, please do.

1:35 p.m.

Director, Moral Courage Project

Irshad Manji

You'll be targeted the next day. But if you don't speak up, then of course nothing changes. What they're trying to say, and again, as we prodded them further about clarity of their message, each and every one pointed out that the only option they can now foresee to make serious change on the ground in Indonesia is to have diplomats and political leaders who are allied with the Indonesian government, supporting the government, to challenge, to nudge and to prod them to invite the special rapporteur in.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Chair, could I ask you, then, a question to pass along...?

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

This is a novel procedural twist.

1:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Sure.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Well, it might be a point that you might see as worthwhile and you might not.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

All right.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

It's the differentiation between a totalitarian type of regime keeping power and doing those things that we see in so many other countries, and one that because of being Muslim and their approach to that....

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Pardon?

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

The rights that are being lost in this country: is it primarily because of a religion-driven situation or a totalitarian one? That's where I was trying to go.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Scott Reid

Okay. Well, that is out of order, but I'm sure that nonetheless our witness heard it and may be able to comment on it in the process of answering the next round of questions, which goes to Mr. Sweet, apparently.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Yes, and that's because of my colleague, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.

Ms. Manji, there's another question that I wanted to ask. You say that five years ago the Muslim majority was one of the most pluralistic and that now today it has very, very serious issues. Can you tell me—and your opinion is fine—what you think has precipitated such a radical change? You mentioned the Saudi influence. Are there other things? Is that the primary reason?

1:40 p.m.

Director, Moral Courage Project

Irshad Manji

I mentioned in my testimony that I think three major factors are at play. One is very weak and poor leadership under the current president. Prior to this president, we had a man who was affectionately known as “Gus Dur”, who was a very staunchly reformist Muslim and made statements such as “freedom of expression is necessary if we're going to show humility to God”. You don't get that from too many Muslim leaders, even in this country. The kind of reform, openness, and democracy that a new generation in Indonesia thought would continue after the death of Gus Dur clearly has been pulled back by the weakness of the current president.

That weakness is then manifested in a second way, which is a sort of complicity with security forces for the sake of stability; that is to say, to show international investors that this is a safe place to put their money. I would argue that the humane way of achieving stability is to crack down on the religious totalitarians, not on those who seek to live up to Indonesia's constitution of diversity and secularism.

The third factor is indeed Saudi petrodollars. I'll give you a very quick example of what I mean, quite apart from the observation that I made at the airport in Jakarta. When you look at where in Indonesia sharia law is being introduced.... And I don't just mean the kind of sharia law that we would refer to here in Canada. I mean very, very harsh measures, such as caning of women, such as legislation that permits the stoning of women, and of course the imposition of the hijab and the burka on women. When you look at where in Indonesia sharia law is being introduced, you find that most of those places are places that tourists from the Arabian Peninsula are flocking to and spending their money.

Well, there's something to be said for keeping those coffers full with tourism dollars by ensuring that Indonesians defer to the culture represented by the Arabian Peninsula. Interestingly, it is couched as religious observation or religious observance, but in fact what it is—and I'll use some pretty harsh language here—is cultural imperialism from the Arabian Peninsula to a much more pluralistic non-Arab country, such as Indonesia, and it's done in the guise of tourism.

1:40 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

Do you have a question, Gary?

November 27th, 2012 / 1:40 p.m.

Gary Schellenberger Perth—Wellington, CPC

Yes. Thank you for that.

Do you have concerns regarding respect for the rights to religious...to freedom of religion and freedom of expression in Indonesia?

1:40 p.m.

Director, Moral Courage Project

Irshad Manji

Sir, could you restate that question, just so I understand it fully?

1:40 p.m.

Perth—Wellington, CPC

Gary Schellenberger

Okay. Instead of reading it backwards, I'll read it frontwards.

Do you have concerns regarding respect for the rights to freedom of religion and freedom of expression in Indonesia?

1:40 p.m.

Director, Moral Courage Project

Irshad Manji

I do. That, in fact, is the central issue here. It's that freedom of expression and freedom of belief, as guaranteed by Indonesia's own constitution, are under assault in Indonesia. That's right.

1:40 p.m.

Perth—Wellington, CPC

Gary Schellenberger

Are there any religious groups that face particular persecution in Indonesia? If so, could you please explain why?

1:40 p.m.

Director, Moral Courage Project

Irshad Manji

Yes, there are, at least demonstrably.

One such group is the Ahmadi minority within Islam. Very briefly, I'll say that Ahmadis believe that the Prophet Muhammad was not the final prophet sent by God, that there was still another one, but in most other ways, Ahmadis do identify as Muslim. A war, really, has been waged and continues to be waged against Ahmadis, in killings, targeted killings, in shootings, and other forms of oppression throughout the country.

Then there is the denomination known as Shia Muslims. They, too, in the vast scope of the Muslim world, are a minority. I won't get into the theological differences, but another war is being waged against Shias, so much so, by the way, that just as is happening with Shias in Pakistan, many people have observed that Indonesia has eerily replicated Pakistan in how it is treating its own Shia Muslims.

Finally, of course, there's the wider group that one would call liberals—small-l liberals—independent-minded Muslims who treasure secularism, who treasure the separation of organized politics from organized religion, and who want that back, for exactly this reason: because Indonesia itself, as a state, is premised on what are called the Pancasila principles, the five Pancasila principles, of which diversity is one, and that diversity of thought, of expression, of conscience, ought to be respected, since this is what Indonesia is supposed to be about.

Let me be very clear: nobody is saying that those who are more fundamentalist in their beliefs have to be expunged, not at all. That's also part of diversity. What they're saying is that imposing those beliefs on people who don't want them is a violation of the constitution, and in that, quite simply, they are correct.