Evidence of meeting #58 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indonesia.
1:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I'm afraid you're out of time. Thank you.
We'll go now to Professor Cotler, please.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I too would like to welcome our witness today, who I regard, really, as the personification herself of moral courage, exactly the project that she heads at NYU.
You mentioned the three major factors that have changed in let's say the last six years. I think the most important one is probably the first, because it then leads to the others, and that is the weak leadership. Regrettably, we no longer have someone in the person of President Gus Dur.
I think I mentioned to you that when I hosted the Indonesian Minister of Justice here in Canada he made two important statements. The first one was that it is a priority for Indonesia to combat terrorism and extremism in order to demonstrate that Islam and terrorism are incompatible. The second was that it is a priority for Indonesia to promote and protect democracy to show that Islam and democracy are compatible. I regret that nobody here in the media covered that press conference. I did not know then—and it wasn't then relevant—how to tweet, or now. Maybe we could have gotten the message out, as you put it, in social media.
This brings me to the specific question of how we can help to promote and protect human rights in Indonesia, particularly religious belief and freedom of expression. You mentioned putting pressure on the leadership about having a UN rapporteur. Are there any particular initiatives that we as a Parliament or as a committee could take, or that we could recommend to our government to take, that might help further the promotion and protection of human rights in Indonesia? Are there aspects, let's say, of Indonesian politics and culture that we may need to bear in mind while we do this?
1:45 p.m.
Director, Moral Courage Project
Well, I think, Professor, what I've been emphasizing throughout the past number of minutes is that Indonesia's own constitution is to guarantee freedom of thought, freedom of belief, and freedom of expression. None of this—none of these ideas—is a holdover of western colonization. This is what the people themselves are to be governed by. So I think it's very important that whatever gestures or moves Canadian parliamentarians make...and do not be subtle about it. There is no need for subtlety here, because there's no sensitivity on the part of those who share our values: they want this back for their country. But in making those moves and those gestures, I think it's very important to frame them as being values that Indonesians themselves have adopted in their constitution.
I do know that the United Nations, every four years, does a review of the human rights records of certain countries. This past year, we saw it do exactly that for Indonesia. I'm sorry to say that there wasn't enough voice from, frankly, our own diplomatic corps in Indonesia.
And let me just make this point, because I think this is very, very important. When I was about to finish up the story of what happened to me vis-à-vis my passport, what I wanted to tell you was that our own embassy staff had received three phone calls from me and my team prior to the attack to say, “We're hearing that there will be security concerns, and we want you to know about these, and please give us an emergency number to call if something untoward should happen.” We didn't receive a single call back. Frankly, it was only after the attack happened and this made news that suddenly we heard from our embassy people. The same was not true of the colleague with whom I was travelling, who is a citizen of a different country and who made those calls to her own embassy and received responses.
To me, it's very disappointing that in a country as strategically important, and as vastly populated as this one, our own staff, frankly, approach these issues in what I would suggest to you is a much more politically correct way than they ought to. What is it that we Canadians stand for? Do we know anymore? Do we? Maybe we ought to figure that out, and then, maybe, as people who are paid by the taxpayers of Canada, we ought to represent those values proactively in other parts of the world.
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC
As you say, we're talking here about universal human rights and values, not things that are being imposed as western constructs, but that are in fact an Indonesian construct that it shares with the universality of human rights. We ought to call them on that and make our views much more open, public, and accountable in that regard.
1:50 p.m.
Director, Moral Courage Project
And thereby give hope to those very people in Indonesia who we love to tell other people in the world that we ally with because of our internationalist ideals: we don't need to be hypocrites on this one.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
That unfortunately is the end of that round.
We now go to Ms. Grewal.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for being here, Ms. Manji. It is an honour to have someone as active and involved in religious freedom as you are appear before our committee.
My question is this. On the one hand, Indonesia has a very vibrant and independent media, and on the other hand, observers say that the Government of Indonesia has occasionally restricted media rights, criminalizing individuals who raise controversial political issues or who denounce the practices of powerful businessmen or politicians. Furthermore, some fear that the new law on state intelligence could potentially be used to arrest or prosecute journalists, political opposition members, or human rights activists who denounce government abuses.
Can you comment on the role of the media and the concerns regarding those who speak against the government?
1:50 p.m.
Director, Moral Courage Project
To be clear, you mean the role of journalists within Indonesia...?
1:55 p.m.
Director, Moral Courage Project
There is no doubt that among the targeted voices in that country are journalists, as they are, frankly, in most states that have a morally weak, power-hungry government.
I will tell you this. When I spoke to the Alliance of Independent Journalists in Indonesia, I asked, “What does “independent” mean in this context?” The answer I received, to pretty much a consensus, was “not corrupt”, the point being that there are many individuals, enough to create an alliance of independent journalists, who are willing to raise their heads above the parapet.
But I will also let you know that even at this meeting with the Alliance of Independent Journalists we needed to have security—all of us—and it was one of the other moderate religious organizations in Indonesia that provided its own paramilitary, believe it or not, its own militia, to surround the building in which we were meeting to make sure that religious extremists could not do to us what was done at previous events.
The point being, once again, that there are coalitions made in Indonesia today that are large and, frankly, that are beyond numbers that we can conceive of here in Canada, so it's not as if voices like mine are rare. What is rare is that voices like this would (a) be heard and (b) would be stated confidently, without fear of reprisal for their own families the very next day.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Well, in May 2012, Indonesia underwent its second Universal Periodic Review by the United Nations Human Rights Council. At the time, Canada made a recommendation that Indonesia take measures to guarantee accountability. This was to ensure that human rights violations would be investigated and that those deemed responsible would be prosecuted in a fair, prompt, and impartial manner. Indonesia recently accepted this recommendation.
To your knowledge, is there any kind of evidence of progress in this area? If so, what effective steps have been taken to halt human rights violations? If not, what can Canada do in this context to improve human rights there?
1:55 p.m.
Director, Moral Courage Project
I'm sorry to report that, no, that decision has meant nothing. I'm not trying to be overly simplistic here. The reality is that even after the attack on my team and me, four or five months later no investigation has actually opened up, despite repeated promises by people in power. In fact, demonstrations, public demonstrations in large numbers, have been held to ask the question: where is the promised investigation?
So far, there has been no response to that either, so the question becomes—and you've reflected and reiterated something that Professor Cotler has asked—what specifically can Canada do? It occurs to me that the new Office of Religious Freedom established by this government would be perfectly poised to take up Indonesia as a cause célèbre, I would want to say, but I don't mean, of course, in a trivial sense. I mean that if you really want, as Canadian parliamentarians, to sink your teeth into an issue that is tangible, that is focused, that has international repercussions, and that very few others are paying attention to, and thereby make a difference on, I think the Office of Religious Freedom would do well to help human rights activists in Indonesia have their voices heard.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Scott Reid
I'm afraid you're out of time, Mrs. Grewal—my apologies.
We'll go now to our last round.
It is supposed to be Monsieur Jacob's round. He has very generously given some time to Mr. Marston.
2 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
He had great sympathy for me, Mr. Chair, as you did in allowing my intervention a few minutes ago.
I really am troubled by what I heard about our embassy staff not delivering the services that, as a Canadian citizen, you deserve. There should be nothing more involved than that statement that you're a Canadian citizen. You should have got the appropriate supports. Hopefully, that's not indicative of anything beyond the mistakes of one individual, but I am concerned. I share some of your concerns.
The other thing I got from your testimony is that Canada did not give a significant intervention in the United Nations Universal Periodic Review of Indonesia, which sounds like something that we should have done. Again, I'd have to see that particular report to get a sense of involvement in it, but I agree that it is a mechanism that's there to draw attention to circumstances like these. In Indonesia, it sounds like getting the story out seems to be one of the serious problems, and that could well be part of the answer.
I'm not so sure I agree with you about the new Office of Religious Freedom in Canada, because, like you, I believe in a secular approach to things, and I'm still wrestling with that particular office until I see more definition of it.
In Aceh province, you have I believe 98% Muslims in that particular part of the country, and they seem to be Muslims attacking Muslims there, if we start looking at the human rights violations. That's part of what prompted me to take that question to you before—via the chair, as I did—about how much of this is power politics instead of religious-based activities. How much of this is about the leadership and the forces that control that country protecting their own interests as opposed to actually being religion driven...?
2 p.m.
Director, Moral Courage Project
It's a very good question. Power politics is exactly that—power politics—which means that any excuse will be invoked as cover, and in this case, as in so many other cases in the Muslim world, religion is invoked as cover.
But, sir, again, one can't make clean distinctions like this without a little bit more nuance. I was asked earlier who are some of the groups being targeted. I am horrified at myself for having failed to even mention, in my response, Christians, precisely because I wanted to make the point that Muslim-on-Muslim violence is rife.
But Christian churches—there's no question about this—have been targeted by arsonists and by bombers. Christians in the country of Indonesia are no small minority; there's a huge population. In that respect, of course, once again, power is involved: “We, as Muslims, will have power over you”. But religion certainly is invoked in more substantive ways in those cases than when the Shia or the Ahmadi are attacked.
2 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
With that, you're actually leading to where my next question is—West Papua.
2 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
That population is overwhelmingly Christian, from what I understand, but the indications I've received as our human rights critic is that this is around the resource base more than religion, and perhaps culture and the nationalistic ideals of that particular population relative to their own country as they'd like to see it. Would that be accurate?
2 p.m.
Director, Moral Courage Project
I would suggest that the resource base argument probably is quite accurate. Of course, we know that Papuans have had some nationalist aspirations but—and I give my opinion on this, as I haven't done hard research into this—I do not believe that those aspirations are a threat to the integrity of the Indonesian nation.
Resources, again, are always at the bottom of these—
2 p.m.
Conservative
2:05 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Where were the churches burned? Were they in the Muslim portion, or were they in the Christian portion?