Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 7th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Today is February 7, 2013, and this is the 67^th meeting of the Subcommittee on International Human Rights of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Pursuant to Standing Order 108, we are studying the human rights situation in Honduras.

We have with us today two witnesses from DFAIT. Neil Reeder is the director general of the Latin American and Caribbean bureau, and Jeffrey Marder is the director of strategic relations for Latin America and the Caribbean.

Before I invite our witnesses to begin their testimony, I want to inform members of the subcommittee that we have a couple of items of committee business to discuss in camera at the end of this meeting, so I will be a little bit tight with the time. That's why I was so anxious to get rid of the preceding committee as well, so that we would have adequate time to hear from our witnesses, ask them fulsome questions, get fulsome answers, and then move to the committee business, with all the time that gets taken up in going in camera.

That said, I'm going to invite our witnesses to begin.

Mr. Reeder, I get the impression that you want to go first. Please begin.

[Neil Reeder, Director General, Latin America and Caribbean Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to appear before you today to discuss the human rights situation in Honduras. I will begin by describing the situation in the country, and then I will tell you what Canada is doing to help.

Honduras is one of the poorest countries in the hemisphere, with 65% of its people living in poverty. It suffers from extremely unequal income distribution. The country also suffers from social inequality, high unemployment, poor health and education. More than 60% of all Hondurans are highly vulnerable to food insecurity.

I'd also point out that the GDP per capita in Honduras is $2,000. The total GDP for the country is $17 billion, in a population of eight million.

In addition, we'd like to talk a bit about the institutions in Honduras, which are in some cases weak. Impunity is pervasive and corruption is a challenge.

Corruption within the Honduran police force is a particular problem, which the Government of Honduras also recognizes. Largely because Central America is situated between the drug-producing countries of South America and the drug-consuming countries to the north, Honduras and its neighbours have been particularly affected by the growth of transnational drug trafficking, human trafficking, and the impact of organized crime. It's estimated that nearly 80% of all cocaine-smuggling flights departing South America touch land in Honduras before continuing northward.

Another element of the violence affecting Honduras is the presence of street gangs, known as maras, which rely on extortion and other forms of crime as forms of income. Honduras has more of these gangs than all other Central American countries combined, and their activities contribute to crime and insecurity in the country. Honduras now has one of the highest homicide rates in the world, at 81 per 100,000, as compared with 1.8 per 100,000 in Canada.

The forcible removal of the democratically elected president of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya, in June 2009 created one of the worst political crises in the country in several decades. Not only did it expose the fragility of the country's political institutions and exacerbate political cleavages, but many observers believe it created a security vacuum that allowed the powerful drug cartels in the region and from the region to firmly establish themselves in the country and expand drug transmitting and money laundering through Honduras. Indeed, this criminal element is a key driver of the worsening human rights situation in the country.

In the wake of the coup d’état, Honduras continues to suffer from political tensions and tensions between institutions of the state. This is also having a negative impact on the human rights situation. Honduras is also facing a serious fiscal crisis which threatens to eclipse security and other challenges if significant structural reforms are not made in the very near term.

President Lobo of Honduras recognizes that human rights and security are serious challenges. He has, we believe, made serious efforts to move Honduras closer to national reconciliation and help restore a sense of confidence in its democratic institutions.

These include the formation of a national unity government, which includes representatives of a number of political parties; the creation for the first time of a ministry of human rights and justice for Honduras; the creation of a commissioner for human rights; the establishment of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission following the de facto government period after the coup d'état; and the creation of a public security reform commission, which will oversee a major reform of the Honduras security sector, including the police. On the latter commission, the security reform commission, a Canadian—who is an employee of the OAS—is a member of this commission.

That being said, progress is slow in this very complex environment that I have described. Canada recognizes the serious human rights challenges facing Honduras. We view engagement rather than isolation as the best way to help Honduras meet its many challenges.

Honduras is a key partner for Canada in Central America. Our two countries have a broad and diverse relationship driven by a wide range of links and collaboration. This includes political dialogue, commercial trade and investment, people-to-people ties, and long-standing development cooperation.

CIDA has been present in Honduras since 1969.

Honduras is a country of focus for CIDA in the Americas, with programming that focuses on food security and children and youth, particularly in health and education. CIDA also supports a number of initiatives of Canadian partners in Honduras, including work on gender equality, human rights, labour rights and justice reform.

In addition, Honduras benefits from several CIDA-funded regional initiatives, including a project through the Organization of American States to increase the effectiveness of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights in processing cases more quickly and efficiently.

Canada, for its part, played a leading role in efforts to reach a peaceful negotiated solution to the 2009 political crisis. We were particularly active during the period between the coup d'état and the inauguration of President Lobo in January 2010 when Minister Peter Kent, our minister of state for the Americas at the time, travelled to the region to support negotiations to restore democracy. With Government of Canada support, one of our retired senior Canadian diplomats, Michael Kergin, former ambassador to the United States, served as one of the international commissioners on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which in July 2011 issued a set of recommendations for follow-up and reform.

We are now working as a country on several fronts to help the Honduran government reform its institutions and meet its security and human rights challenges. For example, Canada provides bilateral and regional security assistance to Honduras. Our Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, known as START, is supporting follow-up to recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission on reparations to victims of human rights abuses that occurred during and following the 2009 political crisis.

DFAIT's anti-crime capacity-building program has provided more than $2.2 million in programming to Honduras since 2009 for projects to equip and train police and other investigative units. This support includes providing to the Honduran national police training on the use of special investigative techniques, specifically surveillance and wiretap, as well as equipment, including video surveillance equipment, all with a view to promoting their CSI capacity and combatting crime. This project draws on the expertise of the RCMP and other police experts and is delivered by a very credible organization, the Justice Education Society, a Vancouver-based organization that promotes Canada's justice system and judicial cooperation at home and abroad.

In addition, Foreign Affairs, through various multilateral programs including those of the OAS, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the International Organization for Migration, and Interpol, is providing assistance to Honduras.

Canada belongs as well to a group of 16 donor countries. This group comprises the major donor countries and international financial organizations that provide assistance to Honduras. Through this group, we share information and regularly express our concerns about human rights abuses, which we report to the Government of Honduras. Canada has an open and frank dialogue on human rights issues with the Government of Honduras, and we raise our concerns at the highest levels.

When Prime Minister Harper visited Honduras in August 2011, he and President Lobo announced the conclusion of negotiations on a Canada-Honduras Free Trade Agreement. Once implemented, the FTA will encourage increased trade and investment between the two countries. We believe increased trade and investment would contribute to the creation of new economic and employment opportunities, and in turn might help alleviate poverty and generate new wealth for Hondurans.

New economic growth could help efforts by the Honduran government to create a more prosperous, equitable and secure democracy with greater respect for human rights.

In conclusion, I would point out that Honduras is a prime example of Canada's engagement in the Americas, which seeks to increase hemispheric economic opportunity, to address insecurity, to advance freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law, as well as to build the foundations for increased engagement.

Canada looks forward to continuing its support of work with Honduras and its partners in the hemisphere. As Prime Minister Harper told a news conference during his visit to Honduras, “We strongly believe that prosperity, general and widespread, is essential to any nation's full enjoyment of peace, freedom and democracy.... And if prosperity is the key to these great objectives, so is trade the key to prosperity.”

Thank you for this opportunity to speak to you today.

Thank you for your invitation. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Reeder.

Mr. Marder, do you have a separate presentation? You do not. All right, then we'll go now to questions.

I have learned, based on bitter experience, not to rely on the clocks in the room. My watch, however, has a fully recharged battery, as you'll be pleased to hear. The amount of time I give to you is based on whether people are willing to go a few minutes over our formal time, say to about seven minutes past. So is that okay? Okay, good. In that case, we have enough time for six-minute questions.

We'll begin with Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Reeder, it's good to see you again. We've heard you in evidence quite a number of times over the last few months. It's always good to have you here, and you're always fact-filled as well, so I appreciate that.

Let's be straight. When you look at the raw numbers in Honduras in human rights infractions, and with the killings of human rights lawyers, in fact, and even a prosecutor as well, it's troubling. One statistic I noticed when I was reading a brief here is that in the Economist Intelligence Unit's 2011 Democracy Index, Honduras fell from 74th place in 2008 and is now classified as a “hybrid regime”, rather than its previous designation as a “flawed democracy”.

Do you want to speak to that directly? Were you aware of that position? Where do you think the Lobo government is right now in moving ahead with initiatives that will see an abatement of the human rights violations?

[Neil Reeder]

I'm not familiar with that particular number, but I guess my testimony has also reflected the various challenges this government faces. There are economic challenges, crime, insecurity, and human rights violations coming out of particularly the de facto period after the coup d'état and the retribution still from that period that one sees in terms of, as you mentioned, aggression against individuals in the country.

It's a very complex situation, and Honduras has fragile institutions. There's institutional rivalry. There are issues of corruption. There are issues of high degrees of impunity. Anyone who travels in the region and visits the region would probably recognize that Honduras right now faces among the most challenges of any....

That being said, we strongly believe that President Lobo and his cabinet...with his efforts he's trying to do the best he can in a very difficult situation, but he does face a lot of these challenges himself. Obviously, he recognizes, and the international community recognizes, for example, that corruption is a major issue, as I've said, including in the police force, and that can lead to retribution against criminals or others who challenge individuals and such. That is a very complex situation that's amplified by drug trafficking and all the opportunities and temptations that come with corruption, bribery, and such.

It's not easy. We're working as best we can. We're part of a much larger group of donors that are engaged in development assistance because of some of the numbers you've heard about the economy, but also in terms of security cooperation. Under the government's anti-crime cooperation program and some of the new funding that we've identified for Central America, we hope to continue to support Honduras, but obviously there are many challenges.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, and the corollary picture is that 23,000 Canadians travelled to Honduras in 2011, and many worked there as well, so I guess what I'm trying to say, or trying to ask.... Maybe I'll take a little bit of a different tack. In regard to this truth and reconciliation report that came out in 2011, do you feel that the Lobo government is taking those recommendations seriously and acting upon them?

[Neil Reeder]

I believe they are. I think the challenge is to move ahead with all the institutions of government in support of some of those recommendations. Some have moved forward, but there's also some institutional resistance. There are interests in the country that may not want to see reforms take place, whether those are private sector interests or some of the security institutions. Again, he's an individual who I think is trying to do his best, but there are other interests in the country that may not necessarily be in sync with him.

I should answer the question of the Canadian presence. It's heavily focused in terms of tourism on the Bay Islands in the Caribbean, the Roatan area, which is the principal destination. By and large, that's where most of the Canadian tourism would go, but if you've seen our travel website from Foreign Affairs, you'll have seen that we're quite prudent in our advice to Canadians on travelling in the country and that we recognize some of the crime and insecurity challenges.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, as you should be.

The other thing that I found surprising, too, in my research is that we do have a successful temporary foreign worker program coming out of Honduras. I think the number is around 500. It means that individuals who live where the GDP is $2,000 per capita, you said, have the ability to make some money and help the Canadian economy as well, but also to return money to their homes. I understand that this is continuing to grow as well.

[Neil Reeder]

That program actually started while I was posted in the region. We're quite proud of it, because in fact in Central America there is a significant outflow of temporary labourers coming to Canada for two-year work contracts. They are going to Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, working in the meat-packing sector and other sectors where Canadian companies can't identify Canadians who would do those jobs.

So they're filling a labour need, and as you mentioned, because of the disparities in wealth, after two years here the contractors can usually go back and buy a very modest home in Honduras. They can invest in their community.

It really is important in terms of a revenue generator for Honduras. I know that they'd be very pleased to increase the flow of labourers from all of these countries in Central America.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

You also mentioned—

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You are out of time, but perhaps I can come back to you later.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Well, from the standpoint here, I don't share the excitement of having workers coming to Canada. I don't think our companies here have done the due diligence necessary to search out Canadian workers for a lot of jobs. But that's a point of debate we could have, and it's more philosophical, I suppose.

As for free trade agreements, I think the number is 19 that have been signed under this government. It strikes me, with the concerns about the human rights violations in that country, that when they conclude a free trade agreement and they park the human rights obligations and the labour obligations as a sidebar document...which, as you know, doesn't hold any value in law.

You may not be comfortable answering this, but wouldn't it have been a prime time for Canada to add some additional pressure on this government, in the view of how they conduct their business vis-à-vis human rights, by having it in the main document?

[Neil Reeder]

I think I'd rather just defer on that question for now, sir. Having concluded the negotiations, we're looking at the next step, which is the signing of the agreement. You will have an opportunity in the House of Commons, of course, to review that free trade agreement when it comes forward.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Sure. That's fair. I'm not overly surprised by your reluctance. It's more of a commentary on our part anyway.

You mentioned corruption. To what extent do you see the military and the police co-opted by the dollars available for bribery that come out of the drug trade itself?

[Neil Reeder]

It's not really for me to comment as an official of the Canadian government, but I think if you put that question to a Honduran president or cabinet minister, they would probably recognize that this is a major issue they face.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It's a huge hurdle.

[Neil Reeder]

There's no denying that you have kind of a convergence of negative forces affecting Honduras right now. One of them particularly is the inflow of drug trafficking and drug transit and all of the evils those bring in terms of the money that moves through the system. Sadly, however, there's now evidence that drug addiction is starting to build up. It's no longer just transit but it's also drug addiction.

So that is a destabilizing factor, for sure.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

One of the things that have happened recently is the dismissal of Supreme Court justices who seemed to be handing down decisions that...and principally the one on charter cities.

Would you comment on the impact and on the ability of the government to just dismiss these court justices?

[Neil Reeder]

I will make one quick comment, and then Jeff can respond.

There's an element of institutional rivalry here. This played out, at the time of the coup, between the responsibilities of the president, the court, and the congress. It's becoming a very common theme now where different institutions of the state are vying with each other for power and influence.

The Supreme Court had a very distinct role during the coup. The coup was precipitated in part by then President Zelaya seeking to make changes to the constitution that the court had rejected. So the backdrop to all of this is just this continuing rivalry, and I saw that situation reflecting this ongoing tension.

Maybe Jeff could answer further.

[Jeffrey Marder, Director, Strategic Relations, Latin America and Caribbean, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Yes, the incident you're referring to developed in the middle of December. There's a constitutional wing of the Supreme Court that's composed of five Supreme Court justices. A number of laws, including the law on model cities, had not been passed, and the government tried to push through.... As part of its efforts to clean up the national police force, it was working to pass a law that would have helped it vet police officers and get rid of officers who did not pass that vetting. As part of the standard legislative procedure, after that law was passed in the National Congress, it had to pass through the constitutional wing of the Supreme Court. That wing did not give the law its nod of approval.

As a result of that, the government obviously was not pleased that part of its legislative agenda to try to get rid of corruption in the police force didn't pass. That led to its dismissal of four of the five judges. As Mr. Reeder has referred to, it's part of an institutional struggle that's going on in Honduras, where we have a Supreme Court and a congress allied with the executive. It's something that we are following very closely, it's something that continues to play out in Honduras at this time, and it's something that we continue to discuss with other key donors in the Group of Sixteen.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

It strikes me that the position they took prior to the coup was kind of sensible from the standpoint that we might view it democratically, yet this other one sounds like it's not as reflective in the nature of how they reached their conclusions.

Mr. Chair, how's my time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

You have another minute.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's good.

On the findings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and Zelaya, they said they were blamed for “instigating the crisis” because he pushed for a referendum. As we know in democratic circles, a referendum is one of the ways.... It's a keystone of democracy. It's a place where most countries would go when they want to resolve things. I'm just curious as to how that could be read as “instigating the crisis”. I would suspect the response to whatever the question the referendum might have been on might have generated it, but the actual move to that referendum....

That's concerning. I'd like your response.