Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on Feb. 7th, 2013

[Neil Reeder]

Well, there are two elements there, I guess. Under the Honduran constitution, referenda can be initiated only by the congress to seek public opinion, not by the presidency, and the underlying theme was that then President Zelaya was seeking a public consultation, a referendum, on his proposal to allow for presidential re-election, consecutive re-election. In the case of the Honduran constitution, that's one of the articles in the constitution that cannot be changed. There is no provision, unless they reform the constitution, to allow for consecutive re-election.

The fact that the president was seeking that conversation with the public about reforming the constitution, which most suspected was meant to allow him to run again for re-election, concerned a lot of different groups in the country and began to generate this uncertainty about where the president was going. Again, there were also tensions institutionally between that president and the Supreme Court. There was also a backdrop of his rapprochement with the ALBA countries and becoming a member of the ALBA with President Chavez of Venezuela.

A number of factors played out, but I think the fear among those observing this was that he was opening the door to position himself for re-election. Whatever party it would have been, Honduras is very nervous about re-election, because this is a country that, from the 1960s to 1982, was under military governments, as was much of the region at that time. They have very sad memories of that period. A lot of people were fearful that presidential re-election might lead to long-term leaders they can't get out or who are hard to remove once in power. There's that historical backdrop, so it was a very controversial move at the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you.

That went a little over, but that's not your fault, Mr. Marsden. It was a very fulsome answer.

Ms. Grewal, you're next.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, witnesses, for your time.

Honduras has the highest murder rate in Latin America, and it's almost one of the highest in the world. What are the main factors behind Honduras' high murder rate? Have the security forces and the police in Honduras been successful in prosecuting or holding court trials in these circumstances? Are police kind of bribed by Honduran elites who are convicted of various crimes or murder?

[Neil Reeder]

Well, maybe I'll answer, and if Jeff wants to add something, he can. Obviously, impunity is the major challenge in Honduras, seeing as they have a very low conviction rate in the courts. Then again, if others can influence decisions in a certain way, they will try to, and they seem to be quite successful at doing that. So if you're going to take crime with impunity, that generates more crime and more confidence that you won't be caught and convicted, and it becomes a bit of a spiral downwards, and that's what we're seeing.

But to be fair to Honduras, that's not unique to the country. That's very common right now in a number of countries in Central America and in South America, but I would say it's particularly acute in Honduras.

In terms of the environment, we've touched on it. There is one stream of what we'd call human rights violations in relation to individuals, for example, who might be involved in journalism or political parties or land seizure or land reform movements. Those are on one track of human rights violations.

Then speaking of purely violence, if you will, I think the main drivers there are organized crime and its role, drug trafficking, and the mara gangs that I mentioned.

The maras actually go back to Los Angeles, primarily to the outflow of Central Americans to Los Angeles. These people with criminal backgrounds being expelled by the United States have gone back to settle in Honduras, and they've brought the gang structure back. Now you're into a second generation of young people who are initiated into these gang cultures, which are very hard to penetrate. They're hard to convict; they control sections of cities, and they control the prisons. It's a very dangerous environment, and that, I think, is another important factor besides the whole drug trafficking environment.

Finally, as I may have also mentioned, during the coup d'état period, the police and armed forces became distracted by demonstrations and street protests and such, and other parts of the country were kind of opened up to traffickers, so suddenly they had free rein to increase their transit of drugs through Honduras, and that has had a debilitating effect on the society.

[Jeffrey Marder]

Just to add to that, one of the big challenges there is the lack of capacity among the attorney general's office and the police forces to investigate crimes and find evidence and maintain evidence that can then be used in court to secure convictions. So this is one of the areas in which Canada has been working as Mr. Reeder referred to in his statement.

We've been working with an NGO out of Vancouver called the Justice Education Society, which has worked with the police and the attorney general's office, with specially vetted units. There's always the worry about passing certain capacities on to a corrupt police force. You have to be careful about that, so they're working with specially vetted units to increase their capacity through things like video surveillance and wiretapping to be able to gather evidence and maintain it and use it in court proceedings and so on.

This is done through training and also through the purchase of such equipment as an integrated ballistics identification system, an IBIS machine, which uses readings to detect ballistics, thereby increasing the evidence-gathering capacity in order to secure convictions.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

One of the most recent statements that was issued about human rights violations was by Amnesty International. They reported that almost 100 journalists and lawyers working on human/land rights issues had been tortured and interrogated by police.

In your opinion, are land reform and land rights issues in Honduras the main driving force behind all this?

[Neil Reeder]

I think if you look at some of the land title disputes in the rural parts of Honduras, clearly, those are important drivers. A number of deaths have been attributed to tensions over access to land and ownership of land. Honduras has come a long way, but there are still some dominant families, large landholders and such, who are resisting changes to their situation. Sometimes access to land causes very tense debate in the country and we still see that playing out; that's an important element of it.

The second part, in terms of media, is that sadly those who venture into subjects like corruption or who address issues of police corruption and drug trafficking can be at some risk personally if they undertake those sorts of reports. We've seen that happen in the case of Honduras. Mexico is another example of how that kind of journalism is risky. Sadly, we're seeing that in Honduras.

Of even more concern is how little conviction and follow-up we've been able to confirm through actual charges for some of these cases. That undermines freedom of the press, of course, and the liberty to write what should be written.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

We'll go to our next questioner.

Mr. Cotler, please.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I want to welcome our witnesses with us today. Thank you for your comprehensive presentation.

Mr. Reeder, you mentioned, and I'm quoting from your remarks, that “President Lobo of Honduras recognizes that human rights and security are serious challenges”. He has made serious efforts to address this, including, as you cited, “the formation of a national unity government; the creation of a ministry of human rights and justice, and a commissioner of human rights”.

You acknowledge, of course, that progress was slow in this complex environment, but what I found particularly serious in the reports we have read and the research that has been done for us are two factors, on which I want to focus. Reference has been made to them. One is that Honduras at this point is the second most dangerous country in the world for journalists. The second point is that significant violence against human rights lawyers and human rights defenders caused the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay—after one of the murders in September 2012—to note:

There is a menacing climate of insecurity and violence in Honduras, and human rights defenders have been targets of threats, harassment, physical assault and murder. She then concluded, again to use her words: I call on the Government of Honduras to urgently adopt measures to address the vulnerability of human rights defenders, as recommended by the Special Rapporteur on human rights defenders, who visited the country in February this year.

My first question is, has Honduras adopted the urgent measures that were asked for to address the vulnerability of human rights defenders?

The second question, not unrelated, is this. One of the human rights lawyers who was murdered was Antonio Trejo Cabrera, in September 2012. As you know, he was a lawyer who advocated for peasant rights, and as part of that opposed the creation of the special development regions known as charter cities. Are these charter cities regarded as privileged entities with respect to matters of trade and investment, and are they part of the Canada-Honduras Free Trade Agreement?

Those are my two questions.

[Neil Reeder]

I'll answer the latter point. I'm aware of the charter cities concept. It hasn't proceeded through the Honduran parliamentary and approval process, so that's an open question, but certainly it's not part of the free trade agreement. If you wish to pursue that, we could pursue that in the future when we get to the committee hearings on the free trade agreement. But that is not something we would have put in an FTA.

The situation with the human rights defenders is very complex. We believe President Lobo has the best of intentions. He's making the best efforts he can, but he is working in a very difficult, sensitive, dangerous environment, and he may not have the unity of all the forces in the country behind him. This was a country that was fractured during the coup d'état period with the de facto government. He's made progress. He's tried to do the right things. He's set up the right structure. All those things I have identified are part of an important structure—Jeff has mentioned some of the challenges on capacity building and such—but has he been able to bring all the institutions and personnel and support with him in this endeavour? I'm not so sure.

Honduras remains a country of great inequality. There are some significant landed interests in the country that perhaps don't welcome change as much as others. And there are others we've seen as part of the resistencia that supported President Zelaya after his ouster, who see the country very differently. So you have deep cleavages, politically and socially and economically in the country, and that makes it even harder for the president to move forward.

We support what he's doing. We're doing what we can to support him. The donor community, which, by the way, provides about 60%-plus of the base budget of Honduras through international assistance—this is a significant donor recipient—feels these efforts are being made, but they're also being undermined and there are interests, including in the security forces, that perhaps don't want to see things change.

I wish I could be more positive, sir, but that's the reality.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understood that, even in your remarks, and that's why I prefaced my question by framing it in terms of these structures, as you characterize them, that had been put in place. Those are important initiatives that were taken, such as the reform or creation of the ministry of human rights and justice, and a commissioner of human rights.

My question had to do with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, her own specific call, post-September 2012, for urgent measures to be taken. This was with the knowledge, of course, that these structures had been put in place, and with the appreciation of these cleavages and with the complexity that you acknowledge.

Have any of those urgent measures that were called for been put in place? Maybe they can't be. What could maybe be put in place in that regard?

[Jeffrey Marder]

I don't have an answer to that. I'm not positive the specific measures have been put in place in response to the high commissioner's call. I would imagine the lead agency or institution on this would be the Ministry of Justice and Human Rights, which is headed by a woman named Ana Pineda. We can look into that and provide further information to the committee.

I understand this is the first meeting to begin your consideration of the situation of human rights in Honduras. I would imagine Ana Pineda, the head of that ministry, would be a key person you would like to speak with on the human rights situation in the country.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Professor Cotler.

Mr. Schellenberger, please.

[Gary Schellenberger, Perth—Wellington, CPC]

Thank you to the witnesses for your great presentation here so far today.

Again, I think once the free trade agreement can be ratified and can take place, it may be a very important factor for Honduras.

I know that crime usually results from two things: being undereducated and being unemployed. Unemployment is a very big reason that some of these gangs exist because it gives them something to do.

Just a couple of years ago, I think, we celebrated a very special occasion in Washington. It was part of the work Canada does in the Americas. I'm from Stratford, Ontario. We have the Stratford Shakespeare Festival, which has a very good program in El Salvador. They've taken gang members off the street, given them an opportunity to set up an arts theatre company, not just artists but a company. They have the whole...right from carpenters to scene painters and all those types of things. That's been able to give some of these young street people an opportunity to learn a trade. They go through the whole procedure. Some of them are actors and they act in various plays. They're even starting to generate some money through that theatre.

After a year or two, that person who's learned some carpentry skills through that—and there are people who go from the theatre to El Salvador to teach some of these things—it has given these people a purpose. It's surprising how that particular program has helped.

You're not going to have the theatre group all over the place, but if you can start at the bottom and give some people a reason for not being in a gang, then these people will start their own business, sometimes partway through, and then they have to get somebody else in to help fill that position. It's worked very well.

One evening they put on a play. It was quite good. I didn't understand anything because I don't understand Spanish, but it was a wonderful way to do it.

I know we talk sometimes in military or government terms, but sometimes the people we're dealing with in these places are ordinary people. Maybe a program like that could be initiated in some of these places also, to give these people a reason not to be in a gang.

[Neil Reeder]

If I could just respond—I think Jeff mentioned this as well—if you're looking at further witnesses here, I hope that CIDA would also be able to come in to talk about some of their programming because this is a country of concentration for them. What you're talking about is a little different, but we do have our Canada Fund projects in Honduras and in El Salvador, for example, that can support those kinds of situations.

Your point is very well taken, sir, because if you asked the gang members if they'd rather be doing something other than the gang, they certainly would rather be doing something, but they have very few opportunities, very little employment. They're approached and indoctrinated at a very early age and brought into situations where they're conditioned to be part of the gang and to deal with some of the horrors that they see. Once they're in, it's very hard to get them out. Sadly, once they're imprisoned it's even worse, because in many cases, especially in Central America, the prisons become incubators for crime and they manage crime from inside the prisons, so it's also very dangerous.

On the trade conversation, we'll have that another day, but I did want to say, having been in that region, that Canadian investment is important. Gildan textiles for example, in Honduras, which the Prime Minister visited when he was there in 2011, is the biggest private employer in Honduras. So 15,000 people in Honduras have a job because of Canadian investment. Their investment is in the order of several hundred million dollars, producing T-shirts, socks, and such for the Walmarts and shopping centres of North America.

That's very important because that investment in San Pedro Sula, which is the business capital, provides tremendous opportunities for young people. The salary is above the minimum wage. The benefits are very impressive. The facility is beautiful. I've visited probably four times. Every day you go, there are 100 or 150 people lined up outside the plant. They come from all across Honduras looking for jobs. So in that respect we're giving them an opportunity, a stable work environment, a safe environment, producing things that we will buy and we need.

That's the kind of investment we like, and I think it's important that an FTA eventually will provide a better environment for investment. Generally speaking, through the FTA we see trade go up in terms of volume and value, and we see investment follow trade. Trade can follow investment, but in this case the investment is there. With an FTA, it should generate more investment and more confidence.

It's the same with the mining sector. We've been very prominent in the mining sector, and this is very important for Hondurans because they rely extensively on foreign investment to create jobs. If you don't have that investment, their options are gangs, or drug trafficking, or immigration to the United States. Looking through Central America you can see that 10% to 20% of the populations have migrated to the U.S. because there's no opportunity, and their GDPs now depend on remittances coming back from the United States and Canada, because so many people have left. It's an important part of their GDP.

I don't want to go on, but the worker program is very important regardless of whether we think it's appropriate to employ those people. For the Hondurans to go back to Honduras after two years in Canada.... I met the first group to go to Brooks, Alberta to work in the meat-packing sector under this program, and they came back two years later with about $20,000 in their pocket. They could go back and buy a nice, solid brick home, and they could buy things for their house and for their family and generate income and activity in their communities. It was a terrific experience for them. Some of them learned a little bit of English. They learned computer skills for the first time. They came back with what in that context—$10,000 or $20,000—would buy a very nice home in the countryside in Honduras.

So in that sense we're also assisting in the development and income and employment generation of these recipient communities when these individuals go back. None of them are staying. They're going back because they end their contract. It's a legal program, and they're very responsible employees.

[The Chair, Conservative, Scott Reid]

Thank you, Mr. Schellenberger.

We will now go to Mrs. Groguhé.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to thank our witnesses for the information they have shared with us.

I would like to go back to the issue of human rights violations. As discussed earlier, I think it is important to have data and to be able to assess the progress that has been made in human rights. Of course, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has shared some of its findings with us, but I think we now also need to have evidence about the current situation and see where human rights violations are at and how they are assessed.

[Neil Reeder]

There are a number of reports that you can consult or that we can send to you about the human rights situation and the impact of those reforms on Honduras.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Concrete data.

[Neil Reeder]

Sometimes, that is not easy to do. We still have a long way to go.

As for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, I think they have made some progress. However, challenges remain. Actually, as I said, some entities in that country are not really interested in pushing forward the reforms. As a result, there are tensions within the government, the cabinet and other sectors in the country that are not quite in favour of those changes.

Furthermore, the constitutional aspect is fundamental for Honduras. I believe that, after the coup and everything that happened, we now know that the country needs a constitutional reform to be able to make changes. Actually, the rigidity of the constitution was somewhat responsible for the tensions and the coup d'état in June 2009.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

That is true.

I would also like to discuss governance issues because I think they are at the heart of a political system in search of an identity and of stability. Do you think there is currently enough stability to move towards a full-fledged democracy? What should we do? How can we assess and promote progress, and give Honduras the tools to achieve full and complete stability in its governance?

[Jeffrey Marder]

I would say that it is a democracy in the sense that it had elections. I was there for the election of President Lobo and I felt that the process was transparent, despite the difficult context.

At the end of this year, there will be other elections in Honduras—the presidential election and the election to Congress. In that respect, the institution is strong, but some of the sectors, departments and institutions in the background are not strong. We must support good governance and help improve the ability to govern in a rather difficult and complex context. However, at first sight, it appears to be a transparent and open democracy, and they are going to celebrate elections this year. There will be a new president next January. But there are still challenges behind all that. Our discussion today is about Honduras, but we see those challenges elsewhere in the region, especially in Central America.

[Neil Reeder]

I would like to add that the report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission contains recommendations on the governance and democracy in that country. There are challenges to overcome. The objective of a number of recommendations in the report is to avoid another coup in the future. That is a key document.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Absolutely.

How can we assess the country's chances of political reconciliation in the long term?